Alaska opens new SAN pilot base

///AMG said:
Yeah id imagine it goes pretty senior. I'm not sure that this will translate into a clean reduction bid for SFO though. Maybe LA, since I imagine most of the senior folks who might want this are there (though I could see a few trickle in from across the system). But SFO will get jerked around to I dunno where.....maybe back up to SEA?
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I’ve flown with more than a few senior LAX FOs who live closer to SAN than LAX. I could see them putting in for upgrade. Since they told me they would as soon as SAN opens and they could sit reserve at home.
 
BEEF SUPREME said:
I’ve flown with more than a few senior LAX FOs who live closer to SAN than LAX. I could see them putting in for upgrade. Since they told me they would as soon as SAN opens and they could sit reserve at home.
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I didn’t realize you have a dozen+ plus people junior to you in SFO CA. You’ll be fine across both bids if they’re only reducing 20-25% in SF and LA. I thought SEA CA was most junior positions. It’s actually SFO. So you should be fine.



Still put in your own current position as #1 on your bid. SEA CA. That way if you can’t hold it, displacement rights kick in and then you can kick out any other CA that is at or below your seniority in any other base.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
I didn’t realize you have a dozen+ plus people junior to you in SFO CA. You’ll be fine across both bids if they’re only reducing 20-25% in SF and LA. I thought SEA CA was most junior positions. It’s actually SFO. So you should be fine.



Still put in your own current position as #1 on your bid. SEA CA. That way if you can’t hold it, displacement rights kick in and then you can kick out any other CA that is at or below your seniority in any other base.
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I don’t think the captains going around giving advice to every FO they are flying with to upgrade before the SLI helps. As it’s super unlikely any date for SLI other than merger announcement will be chosen by the arbitrator. I just flew with another FO senior to me who commutes and didn’t upgrade to spend time with family etc. The last two of them at least have all mentioned captains giving very bad advice about upgrading before the SLI.

This whole entire debacle will depend on how many senior FOs upgrade. While I may be spared I still feel this isn’t a good look for our airline. A lot of those junior SFO based captains will be displaced or they’ll be downgraded. Or both.
 
BEEF SUPREME said:
I don’t think the captains going around giving advice to every FO they are flying with to upgrade before the SLI helps. As it’s super unlikely any date for SLI other than merger announcement will be chosen by the arbitrator. I just flew with another FO senior to me who commutes and didn’t upgrade to spend time with family etc. The last two of them at least have all mentioned captains giving very bad advice about upgrading before the SLI.

This whole entire debacle will depend on how many senior FOs upgrade. While I may be spared I still feel this isn’t a good look for our airline. A lot of those junior SFO based captains will be displaced or they’ll be downgraded. Or both.
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Could be protections.


For example, at VX the merger was announced Apr 2016, approved Dec 2016, JCBA summer 2017, and SLI Oct 2018, effective Dec 1, 2018.


I could have upgraded effective Dec 1, 2017 but waited until NYC closed and took the upgrade as a displacement, effective Sept 1, 2018.

I was a Capt effective Sept 1, 2018.

Dec 1, 2018 the SLI was effective. One protection we got was the Red Circle Captains, of which I was one.

For a period of 5 years, any red circle Captain who was downgraded involuntarily AND bid and couldn’t hold Capt in ANY other base, was considered a Red Circle Capt protection. Benefit was on the next bid with vacancies, this junior Capt would be awarded a Capt spot before any FO senior to him gets a Capt slot.

It was effectively a protection for the junior Captains.

Point of the story, this protection started for any Capt before the SLI effective date. And it lasted 5 years.



So absolutely, taking the upgrade now, or anytime until the SLI comes out, could end up with some sort of Captain protection in the SLI.


The Captains giving this advice are probably referencing the Red Circle Captains from our last merger.


If I was a senior FO, I would upgrade now.
 
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Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Could be protections.


For example, at VX the merger was announced Apr 2016, approved Dec 2016, JCBA summer 2017, and SLI Oct 2018, effective Dec 1, 2018.


I could have upgraded effective Dec 1, 2017 but waited until NYC closed and took the upgrade as a displacement, effective Sept 1, 2018.

I was a Capt effective Sept 1, 2018.

Dec 1, 2018 the SLI was effective. One protection we got was the Red Circle Captains, of which I was one.

For a period of 5 years, any red circle Captain who was downgraded involuntarily AND bid and couldn’t hold Capt in ANY other base, was considered a Red Circle Capt protection. Benefit was on the next bid with vacancies, this junior Capt would be awarded a Capt spot before any FO senior to him gets a Capt slot.

It was effectively a protection for the junior Captains.

Point of the story, this protection started for any Capt before the SLI effective date. And it lasted 5 years.



So absolutely, taking the upgrade now, or anytime until the SLI comes out, could end up with some sort of Captain protection in the SLI.


The Captains giving this advice are probably referencing the Red Circle Captains from our last merger.


If I was a senior FO, I would upgrade now.
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I wonder how the arbitrators will treat those who were captains at the time of the merger announcement but who were forced to downgrade or chose to downgrade afterwards.

There will be more than a few from LAX and SFO…
 
BEEF SUPREME said:
I wonder how the arbitrators will treat those who were captains at the time of the merger announcement but who were forced to downgrade or chose to downgrade afterwards.

There will be more than a few from LAX and SFO…
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Anything goes with arbitrators. But the most recent historical example was AS/VX, and it protected only those who were CAs as of the SLI effective date of Dec 1, 2018.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Anything goes with arbitrators. But the most recent historical example was AS/VX, and it protected only those who were CAs as of the SLI effective date of Dec 1, 2018.
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That makes the downgrades a lot worse. It could affect those pilots long after since they will end up with much worse seniority under the SLI.
 
BEEF SUPREME said:
That makes the downgrades a lot worse. It could affect those pilots long after since they will end up with much worse seniority under the SLI.
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That’s only assuming arbitrators issue a similar Red Circle type protection. We are still talking a timeframe of JCBA plus 1 year. Who knows, 2027 is a looooong time away in aviation.
 
Keep in mind that there was never an agreement between ALPA and the Company on how specifically to implement the protection. If it had ever happened (and as far as I know, it didn't) there would have probably been an arbitration on exactly how to manage it. I'd guess that because of that uncertainty, another Arbitrator probably wouldn't use it again in an SLI process. But who knows. They tend to do whatever they want.

T/O w/FSII said:
Really like how ya’lls management threatened closing the base if ya’ll call out sick too much. Wow.
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I've seen a lot of really poorly thought out letters from management over the years, but that was... out there.
 
BobDDuck said:
Keep in mind that there was never an agreement between ALPA and the Company on how specifically to implement the protection. If it had ever happened (and as far as I know, it didn't) there would have probably been an arbitration on exactly how to manage it. I'd guess that because of that uncertainty, another Arbitrator probably wouldn't use it again in an SLI process. But who knows. They tend to do whatever they want.



I've seen a lot of really poorly thought out letters from management over the years, but that was... out there.
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Are you referring to the Red Dot? Correct it never had to be used in those 5 yrs.

What do you mean no agreement? It was an arbitrated decision. It would need to be honored. It wouldn’t be that hard. Anyone who put all 5 bases as CA and couldn’t hold it would be considered a Red Dot. On the next vacancy bid, assuming they bid all Capt slots, they would get an award over a more senior FO.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Are you referring to the Red Dot? Correct it never had to be used in those 5 yrs.

What do you mean no agreement? It was an arbitrated decision. It would need to be honored. It wouldn’t be that hard. Anyone who put all 5 bases as CA and couldn’t hold it would be considered a Red Dot. On the next vacancy bid, assuming they bid all Capt slots, they would get an award over a more senior FO.
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Ask your reps... apparently what ALPA thought it meant and what the Company thought it meant were two different things. Fortunately they never had to hit the press to test button on it, and the provision expired without ever getting used.
 
BobDDuck said:
Ask your reps... apparently what ALPA thought it meant and what the Company thought it meant were two different things. Fortunately they never had to hit the press to test button on it, and the provision expired without ever getting used.
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Oh. I recall at 9E/XJ/9L, they had to get clarification on something so they reached out to the arbitrator (Bloch) and it was answered. If necessary, they can always clarify any C&R related items from the arbitrators themselves.
 
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