Airport ARFF Index

MarkM0228 said:
As a new, working DXer, no, we do NOT concern ourselves wit that stuff-not when there are METARs, TAFs, and NOTAMS to be considered first. Oh, and there are routes, reroutes, holding fuel to be considered, etc. As a practical matter, that will be resolved above your pay grade. If an airport is in the company OPS SPECS, then its ARRF is sufficient.
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But if there is a NOTAM that the ARFF index is lowered and you send a flight there illegally, it is your ticket on the line and not the company's. Just because it is in the OpSpecs doesn't mean that it is good for the ARFF index anyways. Think about working for a major. You could have a fleet that consists of both 717s and 747-8s. You could have an airport in your OpSpecs with the ARFF to support the 717 but not the 747-8, but you used that airport as an alternate for the 747-8 because it was "In your OpSpecs" and it should have been "Above your pay grade." Who would the FAA go after in that situation?
 
MarkM0228 said:
As a new, working DXer, no, we do NOT concern ourselves wit that stuff-not when there are METARs, TAFs, and NOTAMS to be considered first. Oh, and there are routes, reroutes, holding fuel to be considered, etc. As a practical matter, that will be resolved above your pay grade. If an airport is in the company OPS SPECS, then its ARRF is sufficient.
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Gave me a good laugh.. But it will be in the notams if it is reduced.
 
MarkM0228 said:
As a new, working DXer, no, we do NOT concern ourselves wit that stuff-not when there are METARs, TAFs, and NOTAMS to be considered first. Oh, and there are routes, reroutes, holding fuel to be considered, etc. As a practical matter, that will be resolved above your pay grade. If an airport is in the company OPS SPECS, then its ARRF is sufficient.
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Agreed. This whole matter isn't a dispatcher matter, it's an airport operations matter and something their folks have to contend with. Any NOTAM the airport ops folks put out regarding ARFF limitations, will also normally have recommended restrictions to operations of X aircraft type or size, which would then be addressed during planning if it's an issue I would imagine.
 
bbmikej said:
But if there is a NOTAM that the ARFF index is lowered and you send a flight there illegally, it is your ticket on the line and not the company's. Just because it is in the OpSpecs doesn't mean that it is good for the ARFF index anyways. Think about working for a major. You could have a fleet that consists of both 717s and 747-8s. You could have an airport in your OpSpecs with the ARFF to support the 717 but not the 747-8, but you used that airport as an alternate for the 747-8 because it was "In your OpSpecs" and it should have been "Above your pay grade." Who would the FAA go after in that situation?
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If you dont see the ARFF lowered NOTAM and you send it to that airport and it crash lands, you could very well have one truck roll up with a guy in it whos just yelling at everyone to get out the plane with only a water hose no foam.
 
bbmikej said:
But if there is a NOTAM that the ARFF index is lowered and you send a flight there illegally, it is your ticket on the line and not the company's. Just because it is in the OpSpecs doesn't mean that it is good for the ARFF index anyways. Think about working for a major. You could have a fleet that consists of both 717s and 747-8s. You could have an airport in your OpSpecs with the ARFF to support the 717 but not the 747-8, but you used that airport as an alternate for the 747-8 because it was "In your OpSpecs" and it should have been "Above your pay grade." Who would the FAA go after in that situation?
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But again, the dispatcher would see any NOTAM regarding that, and do what needed to be done accordingly (I hope). I read the original question back on page 1 of being a situation where the ARFF index changed for whatever reason, but there was no NOTAM issued regarding it....basically asking if that's a situation that would ever occur. And if there isn't a NOTAM, then there's no way for you as dispatcher to know anything has changed on that end........basically the same as any other problem that could arise that would affect you but no NOTAM gets issued.

If there is a NOTAM regarding this, then most definitely it would have to at least be addressed. Airport operations' NOTAM would either be specific regarding what ARFF Index the airport is now at, or would specify the largest airplane types they could accept....have seen them done both ways.
 
Along with the NOTAM, this is something the airport and/or station ops folks would most likely call and give SOC a heads up. Now, that's not something to rely upon, but most airport ops folks are smart enough to know how that impacts a commercial operation and will at the very least, inform the airline ops and tell them that it's something that Dispatch would want to know. Then of course they're going to get that NOTAM entered, too.
 
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bbmikej said:
But if there is a NOTAM that the ARFF index is lowered and you send a flight there illegally, it is your ticket on the line and not the company's. Just because it is in the OpSpecs doesn't mean that it is good for the ARFF index anyways. Think about working for a major. You could have a fleet that consists of both 717s and 747-8s. You could have an airport in your OpSpecs with the ARFF to support the 717 but not the 747-8, but you used that airport as an alternate for the 747-8 because it was "In your OpSpecs" and it should have been "Above your pay grade." Who would the FAA go after in that situation?
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IF I ever get to a major, I'll worry about that. Right now, I just want to survive probation and learn the basics. Thankfully, we have only one aircraft type, so that isn't an issue.
 
If an airport issues a NOTAM for a reduction in ARFF that isn't a guarantee they notified your SOC. ESPECIALLY if you are planning at a regional airline flying in and out of these smaller airfields.

Sorry but saying you'll deal with it at a major and not a regional is lazy dispatching.
 
Especially when a regional can have those problems too. A CRJ 200 has a lower ARFF index than a CRJ 700 or 900. While they are both the same type of aircraft, it can make a difference.
 
AprilATC said:
When I was ATC at SCK, the airport fire fighters did off airport calls, however everytime Allegiant came in they were in their truck following the plane to the terminal and staying there until the plane left.
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They must have had heard all the stories about ALGT! :) Or perhaps they were paid by the city to be on site when their plane arrived - I honestly don't know.
 
bbmikej said:
But if there is a NOTAM that the ARFF index is lowered and you send a flight there illegally, it is your ticket on the line and not the company's. Just because it is in the OpSpecs doesn't mean that it is good for the ARFF index anyways. Think about working for a major. You could have a fleet that consists of both 717s and 747-8s. You could have an airport in your OpSpecs with the ARFF to support the 717 but not the 747-8, but you used that airport as an alternate for the 747-8 because it was "In your OpSpecs" and it should have been "Above your pay grade." Who would the FAA go after in that situation?
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Our OPSPECS are type specific in C70 (now). It hasn’t stopped dispatchers from using airports they shouldn’t for a specific aircraft type, but at least it’s there for you to not read and get yourself in trouble.

FYI, go cargo, ARFF doesn’t matter
 
McCrosky said:
Our OPSPECS are type specific in C70 (now). It hasn’t stopped dispatchers from using airports they shouldn’t for a specific aircraft type, but at least it’s there for you to not read and get yourself in trouble.

FYI, go cargo, ARFF doesn’t matter
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Its surprising sometimes to read the regs and see that cargo pilots are sacrificed more than pax ops. Like better to risk 2 crewmembers than 52 people on a little RJ due to no ARFF req for the cargo plane.

Another example is cargo that has CARGO AIRCRAFT ONLY restrictions on it. You are still risking the lives of 2 people if something goes wrong with that cargo. The fact that its boxes in the back and not pax doesnt change the fact that lives would still potentially be lost in a crash.
 
A1TAPE said:
Its surprising sometimes to read the regs and see that cargo pilots are sacrificed more than pax ops. Like better to risk 2 crewmembers than 52 people on a little RJ due to no ARFF req for the cargo plane.

Another example is cargo that has CARGO AIRCRAFT ONLY restrictions on it. You are still risking the lives of 2 people if something goes wrong with that cargo. The fact that its boxes in the back and not pax doesnt change the fact that lives would still potentially be lost in a crash.
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In the unlikely event of a fire, it’s a lot easier to get 2 off a plane than 52.
 
DispatcherSam said:
In the unlikely event of a fire, it’s a lot easier to get 2 off a plane than 52.
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I wonder what will happen with airlines decreasing seat pitch. The FAA was ordered to study the effects of it on impeding safe evacuations. It might lead to a shift where even though the plane was type certified to evac with a normal seat pitch in 90 seconds, the feds might make it mandatory to redo the evac testing every time the airlines want to change the seat pitch. It would get to a point where it shows that half the occupants were still trying to evac after 90 seconds in the test. Its better to find that out in a test than in an actual evacuation.
 
In this industry, you can’t sneeze without FAA approval. They can’t just make changes at their leisure without an approval process.
 
As far as I know, aircraft type are rated for X maximum passengers based on an evacuation done during certification process regardless of the seat pitch.

I have run into the ARFF being lowered at a South American airport because of a few trucks being inop. There was a notam issued and I brought it to the attention of our SOC management and they in turn got authorization to operate for a limited time with the downgraded ARFF. All part of your job as a dispatcher.
 
bbmikej said:
Especially when a regional can have those problems too. A CRJ 200 has a lower ARFF index than a CRJ 700 or 900. While they are both the same type of aircraft, it can make a difference.
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We only fly the 700 & 900; we don't have any 200s. In any case, they NEVER mentioned this (i.e. the question of ARFF index) during training.
 
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