Airlines Brace for Shortage of Pilots

dakovich said:
not to cause a stir or anything....but, do you think RJ flying has improved the flying options for passengers? I know what its done for our career paths, but i would like to see a reference of how many flight options a pax had from point x to point y before RJ's filled the sky and relate it to the amount of options they have today. i commute out of buffalo to JFK for work and can't possibly imagine that in the past there were as many flight options as there are now. Between JB and Delta there are about 15 flights a day. I think the frequency of flights is nice for pax but I can't help but think of the saying "quality before quantity". cut the routes in half, use larger mainline ac and everyone wins. less traffic, less delays, higher margins, better more focused service, crews are happier, pax have less hassels to deal with. but anyway, just a thought
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Honestly, I don't think RJs do all that much for passengers. Yeah, it increases the frequency of flights in SOME markets. But, I don't think it's increased the overall number of seats available. The only difference is what was once a 2 a day route with a 737 is now a 4 a day route with an RJ. Roughly the same amount of seats, just with more departure times. I don't think any more cities are being served than would have been before since most RJ carriers work in a hub and spoke system. If you want new RJ service to a non-hub area, you're gonna have to hope XJT starts into your small town.

I'd be all for consolidating a lot of the RJ routes into mainline routes. Gives a better upward mobility for the career, passengers are generally more comfortable and happier and the number of seats available stays about the same. The only thing you're really sacrificing is frequency, but that was the hot button topic a while back. Airlines would rather lose money by having more frequent flights with half full (or half empty depending on how you looked at it) RJs than lose market share to someone with more departures a day.
 
mtsu_av8er said:
I did - and I was making a lot less than $30,000 a year!
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Ditto, but I'm young, and my wife is already established in her career.

I don't know how some of the older guys do it.

It's that dream thing right Lloyd? :) (I kid I kid. . . )

But in the end, I'm glad they are doing it. I'm glad I am, otherwise I'd end up being a miserable old man. Bitter at the world. . .wait - already am. :panic:
 
surreal1221 said:
Ditto, but I'm young, and my wife is already established in her career.

I don't know how some of the older guys do it.

It's that dream thing right Lloyd? :) (I kid I kid. . . )

But in the end, I'm glad they are doing it. I'm glad I am, otherwise I'd end up being a miserable old man. Bitter at the world. . .wait - already am. :panic:
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You don't know bitter.



And I did my PPL when I was making less than $30k. I was also living in a 2br apt. with 3 other guys and driving a 10-year old POS. It a matter of priorities. Obviously, mine were messed up. :crazy:
 
kellwolf said:
I'd be all for consolidating a lot of the RJ routes into mainline routes. Gives a better upward mobility for the career, passengers are generally more comfortable and happier and the number of seats available stays about the same.
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Everybody does realize that this "solution" involves parking airplanes and laying off pilots, right?
 
mtsu_av8er said:
What about people that do it because they genuinely love it, and believe in what they're doing?

Are they just crazy?
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It's still a job and you still have bills to pay.

Love doesn't pay the bills nor does it put food on the table!

I can fly an airplane around for fun on my own.

If someone wants to pay me to do it, they need to compensate me at a rate I consider adequate.

Yes, I am a mercenary when it comes to working. I make no bones about it.
 
flyover said:
Everybody does realize that this "solution" involves parking airplanes and laying off pilots, right?
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Actually, if it's parking RJs, I'm fine with that. Maybe then we could have FOs with more experience in the right seat. With more flying at the majors and less at the regionals, sounds to me like I'd have a longer time at a major instead of beating my head against a glass roof as the job that I want gets parked instead.
 
tonyw said:
It's still a job and you still have bills to pay.

Love doesn't pay the bills nor does it put food on the table!

I can fly an airplane around for fun on my own.

If someone wants to pay me to do it, they need to compensate me at a rate I consider adequate.

Yes, I am a mercenary when it comes to working. I make no bones about it.
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There's a saying that goes something like: "Follow your heart, not your wallet." Many others have written about financial success that followed after they just went for their dream. It sure worked in my case, and I've known others that it worked for too. Others I've known who have spent their lives chasing money were pretty miserable.

If flying an airplane for fun works for you, then do it. For me it doesn't compare to flying an airplane for hire. Other people want to run a company. Some want to be teachers, etc. etc. Be happy.
 
flyover said:
There's a saying that goes something like: "Follow your heart, not your wallet." Many others have written about financial success that followed after they just went for their dream. It sure worked in my case, and I've known others that it worked for too. Others I've known who have spent their lives chasing money were pretty miserable.
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I think we're talking about the same thing but going at it different ways. I work to live. I expect my paycheck to be large enough so that when I am not working I can live it up.

It's not chasing the money to say, look, there's no way I can deal with a paycut of 60 percent just so I can carry around a business card that says airline pilot. Especially when I won't get back to where I am as far as income goes for five or six years.

Especially since taking that kind of compensation means that I won't be able to afford to do the things that I really enjoy.

On $20K a year, I'd barely be able to afford to pay the mortgage and the bare necessities. Maybe.

That ain't living.

Now I'm not saying that there aren't people willing to take that big paycut.

I'm just saying there are a lot of people who simply can't.

If I were married then yes I could.

But the mortgage company and the insurance company won't take a "but I'm working for an airline" as payment. So I can't.

At $20K a year, my take home pay each paycheck would be something like $600. With a mortgage that runs about $850 a month -- and that's a bargoon around here -- that leaves me with $350 a month for everything else.

The numbers don't work, and for a lot of people, these numbers mean they can't make the jump.
 
kellwolf said:
Well, FedEx isn't having trouble finding pilots. Then again, they aren't actively hiring right now, either.

Picking the top tier of the industry and saying they aren't having problems filling slots, to me, isn't a very realistic argument. Those pilots came from somewhere, therefore they're leaving a spot vacant. Unless they're coming from the military, odds are it's another airline with an open seat. I have no doubts that those top places mentioned don't have problems getting people, but the places those pilots come from probably DO have problems filling seats. Let's take NJC. They don't have problems filling holes b/c things suck at the regionals. Even FOs are leaving to go to NJC, despite the fact they'd be upgrading in a few months at whatever regional they're currently at (we lose a ton of guys here at PCL to NJC, most from the FO side). So, now PCL is short experienced FOs that were close to upgrading to CA. Now, let's look at FedEx (assuming they were hiring). Let's say they get a bunch of guys from Delta and CAL. Now DAL and CAL have slots to fill. So, they'll probably hire regional CAs. Now the regionals not only have the FOs diving for the fractionals to back fill, but they've got CAs leaving for the majors. Now, it double hurts that those FOs went to NJC since a majority of their FO work force is inexperienced and unable to upgrade due to time issues. Eventually, with the cost of learning to fly, it's gonna get even tighter at the regionals. With fewer guys at the regionals, it's gonna (eventually) get tighter at places that aren't the top tier of aviation.

I doubt NJC, FedEx, or UPS will ever be hurting, but only b/c they'll be drawing from other airlines, not b/c there's an abundance of pilots jumping into the career.
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:yeahthat: Furthermore, the number of people getting certificated on the commercial level decreases every year. A fair amount of those people don't even plan on flying professionally. Plus there is a lot of plain "I'm tired of it." I can't go to any aviation related event (airshows, safety seminars, etc) without running into someone not very well informed on the industry who went to Mesa or somewhere for a year then decided there was no money in it and dropped out of pro flying completely. It happens a lot.
 
The average annual salary for a first officer in his fifth year in 2004 was $95,000, but that fell to $87,000 in 2004 and eroded to $83,000 in 2007, according to Aviation Information Resources Inc.

E6BAV8R said:
I'm guessing that is at a Major?
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Kit will always quote the high dollar majors because he is in the business of selling the dream job. Its not in his best interest to discourage potential pilots. Nobody wants to hear about pilots earning 18K they want to hear about 180K.

This is still a great career and brings with it countless benefits and of course lots of fun, but we need to fix some of those little problems like the 18K part.

Good Luck
 
I flew with a CA last week that is about an inch away from hanging it up. He's been flying for regionals for the past 8 years, but he's pretty much decided that if he doesn't get on with a major in the next year or so, he's done. If things turn worse at Pinnacle, he's tossed around the idea of getting out sooner.
 
kellwolf said:
I flew with a CA last week that is about an inch away from hanging it up. He's been flying for regionals for the past 8 years, but he's pretty much decided that if he doesn't get on with a major in the next year or so, he's done. If things turn worse at Pinnacle, he's tossed around the idea of getting out sooner.
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So long to him - that's another open spot.
 
PaulR said:
The average annual salary for a first officer in his fifth year in 2004 was $95,000, but that fell to $87,000 in 2004 and eroded to $83,000 in 2007, according to Aviation Information Resources Inc.



Kit will always quote the high dollar majors because he is in the business of selling the dream job. Its not in his best interest to discourage potential pilots. Nobody wants to hear about pilots earning 18K they want to hear about 180K.

This is still a great career and brings with it countless benefits and of course lots of fun, but we need to fix some of those little problems like the 18K part.

Good Luck
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:yeahthat: That's the way I feel, there's things that need fixing but you might as well try to take some enjoyment from it in the interim and help fix things when you can.
 
mtsu_av8er said:
Those idiots that join the military for low pay, because they love it and believe in what they're doing . . .
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Wow...ouch (as I try to get up from being kicked in the nuts). It's those idiots that keeps a draft at bay. I don't know too many people who join the military for the pay...

As for "believe in what we're doing" keep in mind we don't have a choice in what *any* administration's aspirations are.

Not really sure what that offense comment has to do with this thread anyway :mad:
 
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