Airline push question?

[RDoug]

Yeah, I've always thought it would be a good idea to get rid of the "pilots must read back all hold short instructions" from the ATIS. That's something taught at the private pilot level.

That's mandated by higher headquarters, FAA. Believe me, the controllers don't like a long ATIS any more than do you, as controllers are required to listen to and verify accuracy of any ATIS prior to broadcasting the darned things. By regulation, they're supposed to try to keep it under 60 seconds. In actual practice, there's so much required extraneous garbage mandated now that it's often impossible to accomplish an ATIS in under the optimum minute mark.

As for learning to read back hold short instructions at the private pilot level, you'd be amazed at how many pilots still won't do it until you say, "Read back hold short instruction," after they've responded with a simple, "Roger."

 

[derg]

Never!

"Shanwick, Shanwick..."

Ugh! Work flashbacks!

How about that sixth digit on COM1 as you're coasting in? "Contact London controooool on wan t'ree fife decimal siiiiiix two fife!"

 

[inigo88]

This seems kind of silly to try and condition pilots into not calling ground, considering there are so many gates at airports around the country that push directly onto an active taxiway/movement area. I would think it would be better to call and get "Push your discretion" on the ramp/nonmovement area than to forget you're pushing into a movement area and not call. (Especially since it sounds like ATC at some airports likes to pseudo-control the non-movement area.)

Also the talk about ramp towers got me curious: I've read that ramp towers are privately owned and operated (usually by a major airline). If another airline operates from different gates at the same terminal do they have to pay a subscription fee to the major airline that runs the tower in order to call ramp control? Or is it run more like a contract tower (ie no user fees).

Just curious since ramp towers aren't something you ever get exposure to with GA flying.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

As for learning to read back hold short instructions at the private pilot level, you'd be amazed at how many pilots still won't do it until you say, "Read back hold short instruction," after they've responded with a simple, "Roger."

Right...I don't think that's because they didn't know, its probably because they don't care.

 

[avi8tor1983]

Check KOKC's ATIS. "Ramp is uncontrolled, Do Not call for push or power back..." yet I always heard the 121ers calling. Made me Facepalm every time

 

[dasleben]

Ugh! Work flashbacks!

How about that sixth digit on COM1 as you're coasting in? "Contact London controooool on wan t'ree fife decimal siiiiiix two fife!"

Unfortunately my brain's memory allocation only allows 2 digits to be stored after "decimal."

Check KOKC's ATIS. "Ramp is uncontrolled, Do Not call for push or power back..." yet I always heard the 121ers calling. Made me Facepalm every time

Well we are terrible, awful people who don't belong anywhere near real airplanes.

 

[Bandit_Driver]

Push back what's that? Lol we only do that a handful a times a year.... I have learned the hard way...If it says uncontrolled and it is my discretion I'm not calling...I've been reamed out too many times for trying to be nice and give them a heads up...

 

[Nick]

Inaccurate Data

Why do you guys call ground for a push when it specifically says in the ATIS that the ramp is uncontrolled, push at your own discretion? I'd lose my crap if I was the ground controller.

Another instance that may have not been mentioned yet.

There are a few places that the ATIS says the ramp is uncontrolled and no pushback clearance is required, but our company 10-7 airport sheet has the "Call for pushback" box checked.

Until the 10-7 is corrected, I prefer to go with the more conservative action and call anyway. That eliminates the risk of passing over some non-movement line during pushback just in case.

 

[Polar742]

It's a funny thing, threads like this.

Kind of a bag on a type of operation that someone knows little about.

Sure there are lots of airports where you don't need to call to push, but why do guys who do stuff every day do it? Hmmm. I'll bet reality has a split. Some are lazy and really don't listen to anything but the winds, temp, pressure and code. They also probably step on a busy ground frequency doing that as well.

I'll propose that others have perhaps learned a thing or 3 from doing it every day. Maybe they know it's a blind alley. I know I've done that and got a "You've got a company inbound to the gate". That definitely saves the embarrassment of nose to nose with nowhere to turn. Or, as has been mentioned, you get a flow time. Or, you have other company fixing to push about the same time. A little "heads up" doesn't hurt in certain situations.

 

[Bumblebee]

sure you can, just tell the controller you need to be off freq for a minute to get the atis...I even have to do it two pilot sometimes cause the captain is busy talking to fire tactical freqs...

I hate those type of ATIS reports. It's even tougher when you're single pilot and you're trying to get your arrival ATIS in busy airspace. It always seems that everytime some important piece of information comes up. Someone talks talking on my other radio and I miss what I needed. I can't deselect that radio and just listen to ATIS because then I might miss something from the controllers. Arrrrgggggg!

I hate the long ones too..they generally speak way too fast while not being clear.

 

[dasleben]

It's a funny thing, threads like this.

Kind of a bag on a type of operation that someone knows little about.

Sure there are lots of airports where you don't need to call to push, but why do guys who do stuff every day do it? Hmmm. I'll bet reality has a split. Some are lazy and really don't listen to anything but the winds, temp, pressure and code. They also probably step on a busy ground frequency doing that as well.

I'll propose that others have perhaps learned a thing or 3 from doing it every day. Maybe they know it's a blind alley. I know I've done that and got a "You've got a company inbound to the gate". That definitely saves the embarrassment of nose to nose with nowhere to turn. Or, as has been mentioned, you get a flow time. Or, you have other company fixing to push about the same time. A little "heads up" doesn't hurt in certain situations.

Honestly, I just see no harm in calling for it. "XXXX, request push off gate 37." If they come back at me with some angry diatribe, well, it's them clogging up the frequency. My thing took 3 seconds.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

I hate those type of ATIS reports. It's even tougher when you're single pilot and you're trying to get your arrival ATIS in busy airspace. It always seems that everytime some important piece of information comes up. Someone talks talking on my other radio and I miss what I needed. I can't deselect that radio and just listen to ATIS because then I might miss something from the controllers. Arrrrgggggg!

With my fancy avionics I can get the satellite weather including textual METARs... doesn't give me the ATIS letter though, so all I listen for is the beginning or the end when it says what ATIS it is and then read what the actual weather is off the screen.

 

[SteveC]

With my fancy avionics I can get the satellite weather including textual METARs... doesn't give me the ATIS letter though, so all I listen for is the beginning or the end when it says what ATIS it is and then read what the actual weather is off the screen.

Sometimes they actually put pertinent information other than the weather in an ATIS.



edit to add: I suppose I might have a broken

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

Ehh, it can get NOTAMs too... but perhaps that is why this happened the other day:

I land and manage to get off on the first taxiway:
Me: Lubbock, showme 7809 is clear at Alpha for FedEx.
Lubbock: Alpha taxiway is closed.
Me: Lubbock, did I say Alpha? I meant SIERRA. Clear at SIERRA
Lubbock: In that case, taxi straight ahead for FedEx.

 

[KLB]

Push back what's that? Lol we only do that a handful a times a year.... I have learned the hard way...If it says uncontrolled and it is my discretion I'm not calling...I've been reamed out too many times for trying to be nice and give them a heads up...

Go to MMUN everyone gets pushed from the gates there. On demand freight, scheduled freight, 121...you name it! The pushback has been probably one of the only differences between 121 and 135. I've been there and done that.

 

[L-16B]

That too. Honestly, I don't think I've ever heard "Don't call for push" in an ATIS, anyway. Not to say jhugz is lying (well, he might be), but I've personally never heard it. Usually I just end up calling anyway.

Our 10-7 will say pushback not required, or requested, and so on. I always do just for flow times, and if it's afternoon I call 5 prior I could care less If I'm annoying them I want my time!

 

[triple7]

Check KOKC's ATIS. "Ramp is uncontrolled, Do Not call for push or power back..." yet I always heard the 121ers calling. Made me Facepalm every time

When I was a FNG, I was rudely welcomed to the 121 world when I called for push at OKC...I thought the guy was gonna freak out on me. HAHA...lesson learned. Its printed on our -7 pages so I always just take a look before I key the mic...saves me the embarassment

 

[Bandit_Driver]

When I was a FNG, I was rudely welcomed to the 121 world when I called for push at OKC...I thought the guy was gonna freak out on me. HAHA...lesson learned. Its printed on our -7 pages so I always just take a look before I key the mic...saves me the embarassment

Been there done that...But what sucks is we use NOAA plates, yes I know they don't belong in Transport category aircraft but the FAA allows it.. Anyways, I forgot where I was at but atis said call RAMP for push back. Well, of course NOAA doesn't have freq's shown for ramp. Call ground and get reamed out then ground takes 20 minutes to get back to me with the freq...

 

[z987k]

Been there done that...But what sucks is we use NOAA plates, yes I know they don't belong in Transport category aircraft but the FAA allows it.. Anyways, I forgot where I was at but atis said call RAMP for push back. Well, of course NOAA doesn't have freq's shown for ramp. Call ground and get reamed out then ground takes 20 minutes to get back to me with the freq...

Can you find those plates on duats and aviationweather.gov?

 

[Apophis]

Can you find those plates on duats and aviationweather.gov?

:rotfl:

I was going to ask if there is a difference between NACO plates and NOAA plates.