Airbus is getting rather nasty

The FBW system is different on the 777. The AB philosophy is hard limits and the Boeing soft limits. That philosophy extends into what Boeing believes with the pilot's level of control authority. AB FBW has full control authority and prevents the pilots from making an input controls that would put the aircraft outside it's normal flight envelope. The 777 FBW is not full or complete authority and allows the pilots to fly outside of it's normal envelope. Boeing also believes that that having the more conventional yoke and and column, gives pilots a more realistic feel and feedback of aircraft control. Many pilots believe that they should have the final control of the aircraft. Some pilots like the AB computer controlled protections. And as we known, there are limitations on computer controlled systems and especially if the systems become compromised and "confused". (AF447)

The main concern with full automation, is will pilots become more complacent and rely on on automatics, have less hands on flying experience and in some dire emergency be unable to cope and have less situational awareness? This is the balance that is constantly being sought out between man and their machines. For Boeing, the pilot is always the entity in control and the one who makes the final decisions. Also are not the Boeing controls linked and backdriven so that you can see what is being commanded of the aircraft which gives you the ability to see what the other pilot is doing and what the autopilot is attempting to do? It seems to me IMO, that the Boeing FBW is more transparent. Again, IMO, I like that Boeing allows a greater degree of human intervention.

Also on the 777, when one control yoke is moved by a crew member, the other yoke moves as well. If the autopilot is flying the plane, both yokes will reflect the autopilot's control inputs. Even if the flight crew is busy with charts or messing with the radios, the movement of the yokes in front of them will provide a continuous visual indication of what the autopilot is doing. If the captain is flying manually and the first officer suddenly has to take over or become involved in the control of the airplane, he probably will already have a sense of what's going on control-wise from the movements the yoke has been making in front of him. It's an awareness thing, and can be a critical factor in an emergency situation.

Side sticks do not provide this level of crew awareness. The movement of one stick does not move the other one, hence the non-flying crew member will not be aware of the other person's, or the autopilot's, control inputs other than by instrument indications and by what the airplane is actually doing. Even if the side sticks did move together, their location puts them outside the "awareness bubble" of a non-flying crew member if he's involved with instruments or controls in the center of the panel or on the aisle stand.

And, the Boeing philosophy extends to the throttles. When the engines on a Boeing plane are being controlled by the auto-throttle, the power levers on the aisle stand move to reflect the action of the auto-throttle. The auto-throttle on an Airbus does not move the power levers. They simply remain in the last place they were positioned before the auto-throttle took over. It's that awareness thing again. If the flight control computers determine a power application is needed during some phase of the flight, Boeing pilots will see their power levers move up the quadrant. The only indication Airbus pilots will have is the acceleration of the airplane, possibly the sound of the engines spooling up, and the readings of the engine instruments. In a high-stress, high distraction environment, on final in severe turbulence, for example,these are all things that could be overlooked for several critical moments. That's not to say it's impossible for Boeing pilots to overlook the action of an auto-throttle, but at least they've got some big levers moving under their noses to indicate what's going on.

None of the above may matter to many pilots, but to many others, it will. Just some thoughts.
I think this is why a lot of us pilots, who value our stick and rudder skills that we worked so hard to develop in the first place don't like the idea of AB's philosophy in the slightest. At what point are the guys up front just systems operators? From where I'm sitting, it looks like they've pretty much already achieved it. More akin to a couple of flight engineers than a PIC.
 
Ya, I was just letting you know. I imagine the vast majority or people have white backgrounds. Not only is that more normal on the internet, but it's default here. The gray shows up. Pure white won't.
Sorry I didn't realize that. I looked in my settings and there is default and dark and I have dark set. I think I did that way back when the forum changed because I though it was easier on my eyes. A couple of people have said previously that some of my posts show up in white and I had no idea what they were talking about, because all the posts have white print for me. lol Maybe there is some glitchy thing with the black as a default. I have no idea really.
 
I just changed my settings to default and it's white (ugh) I like the dark much better. But I see what you mean, my post is white lettering on the dark background setting and very readable but it's white lettering on the white background and unreadable. WTH? lol Maybe Doug will know. I just went back and and changed the letters to black on my post. That seems to be working. I think.
 
I think if you just leave the color alone, it will default to white on the dark background and black on white. If you specify a color, it will make it that regardless of the background.
 
I think if you just leave the color alone, it will default to white on the dark background and black on white. If you specify a color, it will make it that regardless of the background.
I have no idea, maybe I did something weird while I was editing my post some, it wouldn't be the first time that I've done something and had no idea what. This is what happens when you are old. lol But I know I am not loving the white background so much. It has a big blue border and the dark one didn't have that. grumpy grumpy
 
I'd fly the hell out of an Airbus. Especially the 330.

Two pages later and I have to call-out Derg on this?!? Actions, Mr. Tylar, they speak louder than any Proclamation on the intarnet. All you have to do is bid SEA330 and bite the wooden spoon.

A350, is a sweet looking jet!
And you. You said this in a thread from three-and-a-half years ago.
http://forums.jetcareers.com/thread...-bros-from-the-north-west.83278/#post-1112127

Yes I've been drinking, but what's up with that?
 
I only have Boeing experience, so I can't comment on Airbus' design philosophy. If the Airbus pilots on this thread say it flies like an airplane, I'm apt to believe them.

Quick question for you guys, though: In my hooptie, the autothrottles tend to hunt, particularly when it's gusty. You end up having to do a fair amount of overriding when it's turbulent or gusty, which usually results in the vast majority of us turning them off and taking over manual thrust on the approach while hand flying (Boeing recommendation anyway). Without moveable T/Ls with the autothrottles engaged, how are they momentarily overridden if need be?
 
I'm pretty firmly in the Boeing camp on this one (no surprise there, I'd imagine), but I think it's probably worth asking: Would Colgan have crashed if they'd been in an Airbus? My sense is that, in a Bus, the computers would have said "no sale" on the C/As up-elevator command. But I speak out of near-total ignorance. Anyone care to speculate or inform?
 
I'm pretty firmly in the Boeing camp on this one (no surprise there, I'd imagine), but I think it's probably worth asking: Would Colgan have crashed if they'd been in an Airbus? My sense is that, in a Bus, the computers would have said "no sale" on the C/As up-elevator command. But I speak out of near-total ignorance. Anyone care to speculate or inform?

In the Colgan case, they wouldn't have crashed with either a Boeing or an Airbus, because both would have had autothrottles that would have kept them out of the stall in the first place. The elevator commands would have been beside the point, because they never would have been at an unsafe speed. This is why I think all Part 121 aircraft should be required to have autothrottles with low speed protection.
 
This is why I think all Part 121 aircraft should be required to have autothrottles with low speed protection.

Honestly, how much protection do we need? We've all got a shaker and a pusher. If we're putting out "pilots" who can somehow stumblescrew their way past those and still manage to crash the airplane, maybe it's our training that needs to be fixed, at the most fundamental level. If you try hard enough, you can trick any system in to allowing you do something stupid (AF, anyone?)...that's why there are humans at the pointy end, right? Either we get back to being Pilots, or there's no reason not to have the dreaded "pilotless aircraft".
 
Honestly, how much protection do we need? We've all got a shaker and a pusher. If we're putting out "pilots" who can somehow stumblescrew their way past those and still manage to crash the airplane, maybe it's our training that needs to be fixed, at the most fundamental level. If you try hard enough, you can trick any system in to allowing you do something stupid (AF, anyone?)...that's why there are humans at the pointy end, right? Either we get back to being Pilots, or there's no reason not to have the dreaded "pilotless aircraft".
For the love of GOD, this.

Mastery of angle of attack is so elementary to flight, that it pains me to know folks -don't- master it. Something is dreadfully wrong with training (primary and otherwise), we all know it, and nobody seems to want to fix it.

I can understand many other casual factors and I'd love to have A/THR, but no amount of automation EVER excuses you from your primary responsibility: positive control of the aircraft.
 
If I were Dicatator (one day, oh yes, one day), the test for being accepted to flight school would be one of correlation. Something like an IQ test, which essentially tests the ability to parallel process (which is a wordy way of saying "think"). It's the one thing computers can't do as well as humans. A checklist is sequential...inline. If there's one thing that computers are better than humans at, that's it. Humans are better at flying airplanes than computers because they can Think. Make Metaphor. Draw upon dissimilar past experiences to make sense of a situation they've never experienced.

Computers still aren't very good at that, yet our entire training system is predicated upon running checklists and reacting in a predictable, inline-reasoning way (acting like a really slow, horribly fallible computer). I'm not, by the way, advocating the elimination of checklists, etc. For 99% of problematic situations, the checklist is the way to go, and the computers would handle those just fine, too. But the only reason to have an actual Pilot up front is for when the checklist doesn't know what to do. Let's play to our strengths here, fellow carbon-based lifeforms.
 
If I were Dicatator (one day, oh yes, one day), the test for being accepted to flight school would be one of correlation. Something like an IQ test, which essentially tests the ability to parallel process (which is a wordy way of saying "think"). It's the one thing computers can't do as well as humans. A checklist is sequential...inline. If there's one thing that computers are better than humans at, that's it. Humans are better at flying airplanes than computers because they can Think. Make Metaphor. Draw upon dissimilar past experiences to make sense of a situation they've never experienced.

Computers still aren't very good at that, yet our entire training system is predicated upon running checklists and reacting in a predictable, inline-reasoning way (acting like a really slow, horribly fallible computer). I'm not, by the way, advocating the elimination of checklists, etc. For 99% of problematic situations, the checklist is the way to go, and the computers would handle those just fine, too. But the only reason to have an actual Pilot up front is for when the checklist doesn't know what to do. Let's play to our strengths here, fellow carbon-based lifeforms.
Well you could BEAT it into the pilots that you should follow said checklist and/or SOP into the side of the mountain if that's what the result is. I've seen that. (The mentality, not(well...hmm) the crash.)
 
For the love of GOD, this.

Mastery of angle of attack is so elementary to flight, that it pains me to know folks -don't- master it. Something is dreadfully wrong with training (primary and otherwise), we all know it, and nobody seems to want to fix it.

I can understand many other casual factors and I'd love to have A/THR, but no amount of automation EVER excuses you from your primary responsibility: positive control of the aircraft.
You shouldn't even need an airspeed indicator. VSI and power indication should be plenty to get you to the ground.
Personally I've never lost a powerplant, but I've lost almost every piece of equipment in the cockpit at one point or another. Turns out, you don't really need most of them.
 
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