Air National Guard

[mav2005]

Hi everyone,

After reading through here about flying for the Air Force, it seems that most everyone is recommending the Guard route. However, I am not sure why everyone is recommending the Guard route?

As a quick note, I am 22 years old and a junior in college with a 3.7 GPA. I will not make any decisions until I am finished with college. There are two issues that I know of that could impact any ability I have to fly for the military - poor vision (I wear contacts and would need corrective eye surgery) and I fail the color vision dot tests. What color vision test does the AF use for pilots?

Thanks

 

[rbtower2]

I am also interested what the requirements are for flying in the ANG? I have had LASIK, do they still disqualify you for that for flying? Thank you

 

[Hacker15e]

People recommend the ANG because it largely side-steps the pitfalls of life on active duty.

Most importantly, ANG pilots get to avoid the "ticket punching" that active duty officers get caught up in to get promoted. This means there is less back-stabbing political junk happening in the squadrons -- this results in more flying and less distractions over the course of a career.

Most active duty pilots, who start off as doe-eyed and excited, are generally quite disenchanted by the time they get to the end of their commitments because of this and other factors like long stretches away from home on deployments and the phantom of non-flying jobs as soon as you make Major.

 

[Maurus]

I don't think I would have a problem flying as active air force. Thing is that ANG seems to have lower standards to be able to get a pilot slot. I have been thinking about doing ANG, but would rather go with the AF. Unfortunately if I would go with the AF I probably wouldn't get a pilot slot cause of my eyesight (correctable to 20/20 with surgery), and if I did get a pilot slot it would be flying a transport most likely. I really don't have a desire to fly huge aircraft. If I don't do anything military I would probably set a goal to fly with Netjets.

I have no problems fighting for my country and would like to be able to via flying. I just wouldn't want to end up being miserable during my first ten years.

 

[Hacker15e]

I don't think I would have a problem flying as active air force.

Everybody loves it from the outside. The issue here is what will you think of it after doing it for 10 years. That will depend entirely on circumstances you have absolutely no control over -- what aircraft you fly, deployment schedules, what happens with the GWOT, who gets elected in 2008 and in the next two Presidential elections, etc.

Thing is that ANG seems to have lower standards to be able to get a pilot slot.

Standards are the same. Selection criteria are different. ANG units are hiring pilots to fly for their unit, so a person who might not be competitive for an active duty pilot slot might get a job with a Guard unit because they are the "type" of person that unit wants to hire. It might work to your advantage and it might not...all depends on who you are and what unit you are applying to and what the current trends are with Active Duty pilot selection.

BRAC 2005 really shook up the ANG tree -- numerous units were slated to change aircraft/missions (including several fighter units that are switching to UAVs), so you have to figure in to your thoughts that this type of thing might happen again.

if I did get a pilot slot it would be flying a transport most likely. I really don't have a desire to fly huge aircraft. If I don't do anything military I would probably set a goal to fly with Netjets.

Okay, you totally lost me there. What makes you think you would likely be flying a transport? Active duty track selections are made after 90-ish hours of flying the T-6A, and even then it's based on what is available and how you rank against your classmates. It's impossible to make such a claim without actually being there...and even people who are actually in UPT don't know what they'll get until a ways through the program and seeing how they stack up against their fellow students.

Second, why would going to NJ after your AF career be contingent on flying for the military? Hell, you don't even know if NJ will even exist in 12-13 years - when you would actually be eligible to separate from the military and apply. Military pilots, regardless of airframe (unless it's a helo or UAV) are generally qualified to apply to any of the majors after an average career "under contract".

Bottom line here: Both AD and ANG are good routes to flying for the military. They are different and have unique pros and cons. Figure out what you want to do, then make your decision that way.

 

[Zondaracer]

:yeahthat:

Hi everyone,

After reading through here about flying for the Air Force, it seems that most everyone is recommending the Guard route. However, I am not sure why everyone is recommending the Guard route?

As a quick note, I am 22 years old and a junior in college with a 3.7 GPA. I will not make any decisions until I am finished with college. There are two issues that I know of that could impact any ability I have to fly for the military - poor vision (I wear contacts and would need corrective eye surgery) and I fail the color vision dot tests. What color vision test does the AF use for pilots?

Thanks

Don't go active duty. Just my 2 cents. I did ROTC w/ aspirations to become a pilot and I had no indication of any kind of eye problem. After I got a pilot slot, I went for my FC1 medical and even though my vision is perfect, they found a slight problem in the topography of my cornea and i'm medically DQ'ed from ANY flying position. Now I'm in a desk job for my 4 years, and although I like being an officer, it is miserable watching the planes fly above and wishing that I was there.

I imagine you are going to try OTS... you get the pilot slot before you go to OTS but don't do the medical until afterwards, and I know a handful of guys who went to OTS, did the medical and got DQ'ed and are also in a desk job like me. As far as your slight color blindness, I am 99% sure you are going to get DQ'ed for an FC1 if you go to Brooks. I know a guy who got a Nav slot and they said the slight color blindness would not be a big deal, but he got bumped up to pilot, went to brooks, and they DQ'ed him from all flying positions, even NAV even though the previous flight doc gave him a waiver. So once again... desk job.

Aside from that, since the beginning of my rotc cadet career, I heard Majors telling me to go guard and that they would have done it that way from the beginning, but I honestly thought that Active Duty would be cooler anyway, because it would be full time and I would be stationed in unique places around the world, but in the end I'm stationed in a base within 1 day's drive from my hometown. I'm just glad I didn't get stationed at Cannon or Dyess. Not only that, having to move every 2-4 years is stressful on the family life, so if you're married Guard would definitely be a better choice. Not only that, once you are no longer living in your hometown, you realize how important your family and friends are and how much you like your hometown (if you live somewhere cool.) Being in the guard allows you to stay in your hometown, you can eventually get a fulltime job if you want with the guard unit, and you will mostly work with the same guys for the next 20 years, not like active duty where you don't have any control over who gets assigned to your unit. The guard has a more "brotherly" feel to it, because the guys who get hired on are interviewed and chosen to work there, it has a different camraderie dynamic. And hey, if you get medically DQ'ed from flying, you only have to do the AF desk job once a month if you want, and you can work more if you decide you enjoy it.

For my friends at UPT, they wish that they had gone guard because they are stressing out over what airplane they are going to fly, where as their guard classmates already know and are just focusing on passing and not competing, know what I mean?

PM me if you want to hear me rant on more, if I could have done it over again, I would be in the Guard, so would half of my friends who are at UPT.

 

[Maurus]

Everybody loves it from the outside. The issue here is what will you think of it after doing it for 10 years. That will depend entirely on circumstances you have absolutely no control over -- what aircraft you fly, deployment schedules, what happens with the GWOT, who gets elected in 2008 and in the next two Presidential elections, etc.



Standards are the same. Selection criteria are different. ANG units are hiring pilots to fly for their unit, so a person who might not be competitive for an active duty pilot slot might get a job with a Guard unit because they are the "type" of person that unit wants to hire. It might work to your advantage and it might not...all depends on who you are and what unit you are applying to and what the current trends are with Active Duty pilot selection.

BRAC 2005 really shook up the ANG tree -- numerous units were slated to change aircraft/missions (including several fighter units that are switching to UAVs), so you have to figure in to your thoughts that this type of thing might happen again.



Okay, you totally lost me there. What makes you think you would likely be flying a transport? Active duty track selections are made after 90-ish hours of flying the T-6A, and even then it's based on what is available and how you rank against your classmates. It's impossible to make such a claim without actually being there...and even people who are actually in UPT don't know what they'll get until a ways through the program and seeing how they stack up against their fellow students.

Second, why would going to NJ after your AF career be contingent on flying for the military? Hell, you don't even know if NJ will even exist in 12-13 years - when you would actually be eligible to separate from the military and apply. Military pilots, regardless of airframe (unless it's a helo or UAV) are generally qualified to apply to any of the majors after an average career "under contract".

Bottom line here: Both AD and ANG are good routes to flying for the military. They are different and have unique pros and cons. Figure out what you want to do, then make your decision that way.

Lots of good info here. I don't know why I would see myself having to fly a transport, probably cause of my eyes. Last I heard they only took about 10% of applicants for a pilot slot that would need corrective eye surgery. That was my freshman year in college that I got the talk about pilot slots in the AF.

I was talking about Netjets if I don't go full time military. Netjets is my goal for a civilian job. Not so much for an after AF job as it may not be around after 10 or so years.

 

[Hacker15e]

I don't know how to say this without sounding condescending (that is not my intent), because although your experience is certainly a valid perspective and is useful insight, but it is based on a very short amount of time on active duty.

Now I'm in a desk job for my 4 years, and although I like being an officer, it is miserable watching the planes fly above and wishing that I was there.

I can sympathize -- I was commissioned in '95, when there were only 97 pilot slots allotted to ROTC, and I didn't have one of them. So, I worked for nearly 4 years in a non-flying job, all the while wishing I were doing the flying.

That being said...this is exactly the reason why you need to be prepared to be an officer first any time you are considering going to fly for the military. Pretty simple concept, really, but for some reason most of the "gonnabes" on these forums don't really wrap their mind around the possibility that it might happen to them after they sign on the bottom line.

but in the end I'm stationed in a base within 1 day's drive from my hometown. I'm just glad I didn't get stationed at Cannon or Dyess. Not only that, having to move every 2-4 years is stressful on the family life, so if you're married Guard would definitely be a better choice.

Results not typical. The closest I've lived to my home town over the course of 6 PCSs is 1,000 miles.

By the way, moving every couple years isn't always tough on the family. My family loves it. We're able to go live in places that we never would have been to if we havn't been "forced" to go there, plus I never have to deal with really getting tired of where I'm living and working. Even jobs you love get stagnant after a while, and the AF's PCS timing almost always hits before I'm completely sick of my current job/coworkers/town/whatnot.

I grew up in the same house, same town, same people for 22 years. The amount of life experience, perspective on cultures, places seen and done, etc, gained by being forced to move new places every couple years is amazing. If every American were forced to live overseas and see things from a perspective outside the US, they'd be much better citizens.

It's all what you make of it.

Not only that, once you are no longer living in your hometown, you realize how important your family and friends are and how much you like your hometown (if you live somewhere cool.)

I love my hometown, but seeing other parts of the US and world have shown me that there are many other places that are cool, too.

Being in the guard allows you to stay in your hometown, you can eventually get a fulltime job if you want with the guard unit, and you will mostly work with the same guys for the next 20 years, not like active duty where you don't have any control over who gets assigned to your unit..

That's nice, as long as you like those people in your unit. And so long as you still like them in 10 or 20 years.

For my friends at UPT, they wish that they had gone guard because they are stressing out over what airplane they are going to fly, where as their guard classmates already know and are just focusing on passing and not competing, know what I mean?

That's also a phenomenally short-sighted reason to pick one or the other. UPT is going to be stressful no matter what, and in the grand scheme of things, worrying about what airplane you're going to fly is pretty childish. Seriously...the goal of every SUPT student should be simply to pin those silver wings on their chest, and everything after that is just gravy.

Anyway, 53 weeks of "knowing" what airplane you'll go to is no guarantee. How many ANG fighter units found out in BRAC 2005 that they were going to become Predator units? I know of several dudes who were in SUPT at the time and found out that their "guaranteed fighter" suddenly turned into a heavy or a UAV. How about all those guys who pledged that fighter unit years ago with the belief that they were going to be an ANG fighter pilot the rest of their career?

Don't get me wrong -- I like the ANG route and wish that I'd known about it earlier in my career. It is not, however, for everyone and it has its own unique issues that people need to consider before they decide that's what they want to do.

Zondaracer, thanks for your service. Seriously, I was not trying to bash you with this. I think you'll find that in the long run, 4 years spent wearing an AF uniform (even if it's not what you expected) will be a positive experience and impact on your life.

EDIT: Whoops. I posted that UPT was "53 months" long...meant weeks. That would be a long-a$$ed training program!!

 

[ANG135drvr]

Hi everyone,

After reading through here about flying for the Air Force, it seems that most everyone is recommending the Guard route. However, I am not sure why everyone is recommending the Guard route?

As a quick note, I am 22 years old and a junior in college with a 3.7 GPA. I will not make any decisions until I am finished with college. There are two issues that I know of that could impact any ability I have to fly for the military - poor vision (I wear contacts and would need corrective eye surgery) and I fail the color vision dot tests. What color vision test does the AF use for pilots?

Thanks

OK, all that has been posted above has been really great advice...But!

There is always a BUT, you have poor vision (which I am expecting from your post is much worse than standards) and you cannot pass the Color Vision Test. With the military you will do a standard dot test and also some extensive testing with Topographic mapping and peripheral vision testing. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but as far as I have ever known, if you are Color Blind or cannot pass the color test you are not eligible for a Military Pilot slot. There are ways around bad eyesight, but your color vision is essential and I have never heard of that being waiverable.

Anyone else who has experience please feel free to chime in as well. I have firsthand experience with poor vision so PM me if you would like more info, but the color thing could be a show stopper.

Good luck to you in your pursuit and keep us all informed of your decision!

 

[ANG135drvr]

I am also interested what the requirements are for flying in the ANG? I have had LASIK, do they still disqualify you for that for flying? Thank you

Once again sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but LASIK is not and accepted process for Mil pilots. The only way to get surgery is to do it in conjunction with the military and get PRK with a waiver. You then have to get subsequent waivers every year for the rest of your flying career in the military. (This process is less desirable and very involved)

 

[ANG135drvr]

I don't think I would have a problem flying as active air force. Thing is that ANG seems to have lower standards to be able to get a pilot slot. I have been thinking about doing ANG, but would rather go with the AF. Unfortunately if I would go with the AF I probably wouldn't get a pilot slot cause of my eyesight (correctable to 20/20 with surgery), and if I did get a pilot slot it would be flying a transport most likely. I really don't have a desire to fly huge aircraft. If I don't do anything military I would probably set a goal to fly with Netjets.

I have no problems fighting for my country and would like to be able to via flying. I just wouldn't want to end up being miserable during my first ten years.

OK last post for me for a while... But your comment on standards befuddles me.

All pilot slots are very competitive so don't think anything is easy, but this leads to another question for you Maurus. Do you have any civilian time? The guard rarely....and I mean rarely or never hires someone off the street with no flying experience. You would have to be prior enlisted working at the unit to get on this way. Where the AF and ROTC will give you a pilot slot without flying time and get you that time at least through your PPL.

Secondly the Guard is not run like the AD whereas you either better be an outstanding candidate or better have an IN to get a slot. It's very rare that someone gets into a flying slot at a Guard unit without and IN. Keep that in mind...and if you want to be a fast mover (fighter) in the guard, good luck because the Fighter slots are few and far between.

So that all being said if your really high speed and have a few IN's work on the guard, if not , start rushing a guard unit and getting to know people and getting them to know your face. If your not into the initial political part, then you might want to go AD and deal with the political part that comes once your hired. Both ways are great, I can say from personal experience sometimes I wish i was AD for the job security and good pay. The Guard pays great and is there when you need it, but when your not on AD orders things are just not the same and you better have a descent civilian job to cover your insurance etc...

All said you need to be sure your in this for the right reasons because as said before you are always an Officer first then a Pilot when a military pilot. One golden rule about the military and its way of life is that your life is always flexible to, "The Needs of the Air Force"

Good luck in your pursuit and feel free to shoot more concerns or questions!

(I did not take offense but felt that your comment deserved a candid response to clarify the difference in getting the two jobs)

 

[Zondaracer]

Hey Hacker15E, I don't take it as a bashing at all, in the military you learn to not take things personally. Everyone has their own experiences, some good some bad, I'm just giving my two cents from my short career. Everyone's experiences are different. My wife is a foreigner and so is my mom, so I totally understand the aspect of getting stationed in far away lands and learning about the world. I'm an army brat but half way through my dad's career he got an AGR position, so in my teenage years I was fortunate enough to stay in the same place (since I hear teenage years are the hardest on moving). My wife and I are learning to enjoy this PCS to Tucson even though it was a non vol, and we are definitely making the best of the situation. The short story that i'm trying to skirt around is that I'm a little bit bitter, mainly because I feel that I have been lied to by people I respected and trusted and once viewed as examples of integrity, and it just breaks my faith and morale. In the end, I just sucked it up, put a smile on my face, made my own plans on my future (which hopefully will land me in the ANG), and just making the best of my situation. That's all, hopefully many others will not have the same experiences that I've had. You can PM me if you want really get into it.

 

[Maurus]

OK last post for me for a while... But your comment on standards befuddles me.

All pilot slots are very competitive so don't think anything is easy, but this leads to another question for you Maurus. Do you have any civilian time? The guard rarely....and I mean rarely or never hires someone off the street with no flying experience. You would have to be prior enlisted working at the unit to get on this way. Where the AF and ROTC will give you a pilot slot without flying time and get you that time at least through your PPL.

Secondly the Guard is not run like the AD whereas you either better be an outstanding candidate or better have an IN to get a slot. It's very rare that someone gets into a flying slot at a Guard unit without and IN. Keep that in mind...and if you want to be a fast mover (fighter) in the guard, good luck because the Fighter slots are few and far between.

So that all being said if your really high speed and have a few IN's work on the guard, if not , start rushing a guard unit and getting to know people and getting them to know your face. If your not into the initial political part, then you might want to go AD and deal with the political part that comes once your hired. Both ways are great, I can say from personal experience sometimes I wish i was AD for the job security and good pay. The Guard pays great and is there when you need it, but when your not on AD orders things are just not the same and you better have a descent civilian job to cover your insurance etc...

All said you need to be sure your in this for the right reasons because as said before you are always an Officer first then a Pilot when a military pilot. One golden rule about the military and its way of life is that your life is always flexible to, "The Needs of the Air Force"

Good luck in your pursuit and feel free to shoot more concerns or questions!

(I did not take offense but felt that your comment deserved a candid response to clarify the difference in getting the two jobs)

I am coming up on 300 hours of flight time and will be taking my CFII initial ride here in a week, and then the CFI-A ride not too long after. I will be instructing till I get my college done, which could be 1 to 1.5 years form now. I will have plenty of time logged and don't think it would be a problem.


I do understand it is officer first then pilot. I have done AFJROTC in high school and a little AFROTC in college. Decided that adding the AFROTC classes hurt my other classes and I dropped out the next semester (hoping for OTS in the future). Anyway, I did get the lowdown from the officers in the AFROTC program about what to expect.

The lower standards is just what I have seen during my initial research.

If I do go ANG I would make sure I have a good civilian job. Probably would still set a goal for Netjets.

 

[88MPH]

The short story that i'm trying to skirt around is that I'm a little bit bitter, mainly because I feel that I have been lied to by people I respected and trusted and once viewed as examples of integrity, and it just breaks my faith and morale. In the end, I just sucked it up, put a smile on my face, made my own plans on my future (which hopefully will land me in the ANG), and just making the best of my situation. That's all, hopefully many others will not have the same experiences that I've had. You can PM me if you want really get into it.

:yeahthat:

Same town, same story. I'm glad you have the sense to plan YOUR future!!! Best of luck!

 

[alphaone]

Once again sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but LASIK is not and accepted process for Mil pilots.

Actually, as far as AFROTC goes, they now are accepting waivers for LASIK. In fact just last week one of my fellow cadet's got the surgery and now next year she can compete for a pilot slot.

 

[guardguy]

OK last post for me for a while... But your comment on standards befuddles me.

All pilot slots are very competitive so don't think anything is easy, but this leads to another question for you Maurus. Do you have any civilian time? The guard rarely....and I mean rarely or never hires someone off the street with no flying experience. You would have to be prior enlisted working at the unit to get on this way. Where the AF and ROTC will give you a pilot slot without flying time and get you that time at least through your PPL.

Secondly the Guard is not run like the AD whereas you either better be an outstanding candidate or better have an IN to get a slot. It's very rare that someone gets into a flying slot at a Guard unit without and IN. Keep that in mind...and if you want to be a fast mover (fighter) in the guard, good luck because the Fighter slots are few and far between.

So that all being said if your really high speed and have a few IN's work on the guard, if not , start rushing a guard unit and getting to know people and getting them to know your face. If your not into the initial political part, then you might want to go AD and deal with the political part that comes once your hired. Both ways are great, I can say from personal experience sometimes I wish i was AD for the job security and good pay. The Guard pays great and is there when you need it, but when your not on AD orders things are just not the same and you better have a descent civilian job to cover your insurance etc...

All said you need to be sure your in this for the right reasons because as said before you are always an Officer first then a Pilot when a military pilot. One golden rule about the military and its way of life is that your life is always flexible to, "The Needs of the Air Force"

Good luck in your pursuit and feel free to shoot more concerns or questions!

(I did not take offense but felt that your comment deserved a candid response to clarify the difference in getting the two jobs)

:yeahthat:

Even with civilian time, guard spots are EXTREMELY competitive. Much harder than AD slots if you ask me. If guard flying is what you want then I suggest you keep your options open as far as location and airframe. The more you narrow it down, i.e. fighters only or hometown only, the harder it's going to be. Figure, at best, a particular unit only hires 1 maybe 2 guys a year. There's usually 10 or so interviewees out of about 50-100 applicants. Obviously the numbers may vary, but this is just to give you an idea.

 

[germb747]

Do you want to be a little more specific on why you think the "standards are lower"? :banghead:

 

[frog_flyer]

Do you want to be a little more specific on why you think the "standards are lower"? :banghead:

He may have been implying how political the process is vs. the ROTC route. If you're enlisted in the unit, say as a loadmaster or a boom, you're going to get to know the pilots very well.

If you're not a dickhead, and get along with them and do a good job, you're probably going to get picked up even if you don't have 690 flight hours and awesome AFOQT and PCSM scores.

 

[Maurus]

He may have been implying how political the process is vs. the ROTC route. If you're enlisted in the unit, say as a loadmaster or a boom, you're going to get to know the pilots very well.

There was a website I was looking at about a year ago where people would report their GPA, flight hours, and AFOQT scores for the ANG and AD. Looking at averages and such, I found that people that got slots in the ANG would have a GPA as low as 2.8 and above average AFOQT pilot and navigation scores. The GPS average was a bit lower than AD's average GPA. If I can find the website I will link it.


These lower GPA's might just be because of the people that enlisted with the unit and got their degree while getting to know everyone int he unit. Knowing someone on the inside almost always helps.

 

[guardguy]

There was a website I was looking at about a year ago where people would report their GPA, flight hours, and AFOQT scores for the ANG and AD. Looking at averages and such, I found that people that got slots in the ANG would have a GPA as low as 2.8 and above average AFOQT pilot and navigation scores. The GPS average was a bit lower than AD's average GPA. If I can find the website I will link it.


These lower GPA's might just be because of the people that enlisted with the unit and got their degree while getting to know everyone int he unit. Knowing someone on the inside almost always helps.

I can see this being true, with the exception of my PCSM score, my numbers were pretty low. However, you still have to keep in mind how many slots are available. There are a TON of AD pilots hired each year, while it's the opposite for the Guard.

It's all about getting that interview. Many units won't hire anybody outside there own, some won't hire anybody that isn't prior enlisted, while others won't hire anybody without flight experience. There's no doubt that people with none of the above have the hardest time. I noticed you have flight time, are you planning on contacting a certain unit?

Remember, getting the interview is the first step. Next, these guys are going to sit you down and decide if you are somebody they can be around for the next 10 years. Sure they are going to ask you the standard interview questions, but the Guard is like a Frat, and they are going to see if you are somebody that fits in with them. That's why scores and grades don't play as big of a factor when getting hired. That's why people on the inside have an easier time getting hired because they've gone on TDY's with the pilots and socialized with them outside of work.