Air Force, Air Lines eyeballing shortage and 1500 hour rule

killbilly

killbilly

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Interesting.

I know our resident military flying experts have talked about the reasons pilots leave the air force are about lifestyle - (the queep machine, right @MikeD ?) Now it seems the USAF might want to help the air lines reduce/change the 1500 hour rule.

http://www.stripes.com/news/air-force-airline-industry-working-on-joint-solution-to-pilot-shortage-1.451113?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=EBB 1.27.17&utm_term=Editorial - Early Bird Brief

(Note - small paywall pops up, but you can close it and move past it.)
 
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NovemberEcho said:
Gotta pay to play article
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I didn't. It popped up asking me to subscribe, and I just closed the window and had access to the whole article.

EDIT: I just checked it from another browser/machine - same thing. The login/subscription is a soft barrier. Just close it and it lets you read.
 
“I’ve got a lot of folks who have flown 1500 hours. So I could look at, ‘how do I keep what I have longer’? Or look at this nationally and say, ‘Is it time to relook at that requirement, given the challenge we face’? Does 1500 hours make sense?” he said at the conference. “What’s magic about 1500 hours? If we were to change that, and change the incentive structure for where we produce pilots, could we change the demand and supply imbalance that we face right now?”

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The Air Force continues to be in complete denial about their problems and so self-indoctrinated that they can't even admit that they are the root issue. Sorry, side issue...

None the less, hearing a USAF General speak about the 1500 hour rule is an apples-to-oranges bit of perspective. Put simply, he doesn't really have any idea what he's talking about.

The skill-level progression and experience bars are very different for military and civilian pilot careers. It took me about 9 years as a fighter pilot (two operational tours flying the F-15E in combat units and one tour as a T-38 Instructor) to reach 1500 hours. By comparison purposes, in only 500 hours of total military time I upgraded to F-15E 4-ship flight leader/mission commander, and the military considers someone at 500 hours in type to be "experienced".

In general, military pilots have more intensely focused training and will reach levels of responsibility at hourly totals that are far lower than their peer civilian career track pilots.

That's not wang-measuring, that's just a fact of how the systems work differently.

So, the perspective from the military side about what level of experience is represented at 1500 hours is quite different.
 
Idiots. If I'd have known better what I was getting into, debt and time and pay wise, I'm not sure I'd have made the leap. But nearly 10 years in, I'm kind of pot committed, so I'm going to try and make it work. I'm leaving in a few hours to go to work for a few days while my kids are heading up to the snow.
 
BEEF SUPREME said:
The debt forgiveness part really makes me scratch my head. I'm not really sure what the context of that is. However in general I feel debt forgiveness is just punishing those who are financially responsible.


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I don't disagree with the debt forgiveness part being irresponsible, but some of the student loans terms are pretty ridiculous. Some of these student loan companies need to be reigned in.
 
mshunter said:
I don't disagree with the debt forgiveness part being irresponsible, but some of the student loans terms are pretty ridiculous. Some of these student loan companies need to be reigned in.
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A college education is a privilege not a right. Can't afford one? Then learn a trade. Nothing demeaning at all about working with you hands and your brain. Anyone who took a student loan knew at the outset that the money would have to paid back and would not be forgivable. If not, bad on you for not doing your due diligence. Welcome to adulthood, now payoff your debt. (This post is an opinion based on fact and not directed at anyone personally in this thread or others.)
 
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JetDoc said:
A college education is a privilege not a right. Can't afford one? Then learn a trade. Nothing demeaning at all about working with you hands and your brain. Anyone who took a student loan knew at the outset that the money would have to paid back and would not be forgivable. If not, bad on you for not doing your due diligence. Welcome to adulthood, now payoff your debt. (This post is an opinion based on fact and not directed at anyone personally in this thread or others.)
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I don't disagree. But some of the loan companies need to be dealt with. A family friend lost his home, and him and his family were put out in the streets because he lost a non-flying job, defaulted on his student loans. I'm not privy to the specifics, but that's the story we're told.
 
mshunter said:
I don't disagree. But some of the loan companies need to be dealt with. A family friend lost his home, and him and his family were put out in the streets because he lost a non-flying job, defaulted on his student loans. I'm not privy to the specifics, but that's the story we're told.
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I'm sure that's true. Student loans are just about the only instrument of debt that can't be relieved through a bankruptcy. If you default, they can sue and force a judgement lien on your property, which allows them to force you to sell your property to satisfy the lien. As well as garnishing your wages and seizing your bank accounts.
 
@Hacker15e - your remarks seem to dovetail with everything else I've been reading (and hearing) both before and since this publication.

I've thought in the past that it would be interesting for the USAF to offer a 'civilianized' version of flight training with the same level of intensity (and, presumably, washout rate) in an effort to create the best pilots possible. The cost would be super-steep (military pilot training costs about $1M a head, right?) but I wonder if the airlines would compensate accordingly? And I wonder what aspiring pilots would pay?
 
killbilly said:
@Hacker15e - your remarks seem to dovetail with everything else I've been reading (and hearing) both before and since this publication.

I've thought in the past that it would be interesting for the USAF to offer a 'civilianized' version of flight training with the same level of intensity (and, presumably, washout rate) in an effort to create the best pilots possible. The cost would be super-steep (military pilot training costs about $1M a head, right?) but I wonder if the airlines would compensate accordingly? And I wonder what aspiring pilots would pay?
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Why? Does the military create the best pilots? They spend the time and money on training for a specific mission. Airlines spend time and money for an entirely different mission. The barriers to entry are different and who's paying the bill is way different (DOD vs. business). It seems like an apples and oranges comparison.
 
Skåning said:
Why? Does the military create the best pilots? They spend the time and money on training for a specific mission. Airlines spend time and money for an entirely different mission. The barriers to entry are different and who's paying the bill is way different (DOD vs. business). It seems like an apples and oranges comparison.
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Dugie8 said:
The statement should read "Best MILITARY pilot possible"
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Both of those are good points - and I guess you're right - apples and oranges.
 
mshunter said:
I don't disagree with the debt forgiveness part being irresponsible, but some of the student loans terms are pretty ridiculous. Some of these student loan companies need to be reigned in.
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More than student loans, the astronomical cost skyrocketing of tuition needs to be dealt with. The Fed used to cap Federal student loans at $50k (or around there). They did away with the cap in an attempt to make college more affordable for more people. Instead this backfired and almost immediately after the cap was taken away the colleges saw $$$ and that is when the tuition increases began.
 
NovemberEcho said:
More than student loans, the astronomical cost skyrocketing of tuition needs to be dealt with. The Fed used to cap Federal student loans at $50k (or around there). They did away with the cap in an attempt to make college more affordable for more people. Instead this backfired and almost immediately after the cap was taken away the colleges saw $$$ and that is when the tuition increases began.
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Yeeeep, it's almost like freely available government money tends to cause asset bubbles...but nah...we've never seen that before.
 
NovemberEcho said:
More than student loans, the astronomical cost skyrocketing of tuition needs to be dealt with. The Fed used to cap Federal student loans at $50k (or around there). They did away with the cap in an attempt to make college more affordable for more people. Instead this backfired and almost immediately after the cap was taken away the colleges saw $$$ and that is when the tuition increases began.
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Oh don't even get me started on the affordability of a college education now. I wish I had done it in my late teens early 20's instead of my late 30's early 40's. I'd be almost done, rather than eating Ramen so I can go to school. My kids are tired of Hamburger Helper, just so I can afford school.
 
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