Air ambulance, and the bill afterwards

It's like a shady plumber who tells grandma she needs an all new water heater when a 5 cent washed would fix it. He knows she really doesn't need it, but still sells it.

If a patient is transported via ground when a helicopter was available and the patient dies in the ambulance, whoever decided not to utilize the helicopter is going to get sued. Why would you take that risk when it's not your money?
 
If a patient is transported via ground when a helicopter was available and the patient dies in the ambulance, whoever decided not to utilize the helicopter is going to get sued. Why would you take that risk when it's not your money?

Conversely, when a non-critical patient gets sent via helo and gets killed in a crash of same helo, the "why wasn't he sent by ground ambo" crowd will be out too.
 
I'd rather be in the back with a critical care nurse and a highly experienced flight medic then a ground medic.


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I'd rather be in the back with a critical care nurse and a highly experienced flight medic then a ground medic.


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What's wrong with ground medics? They all have to take and pass the same exams and hold the same licenses. Most flight companies require medics to become FP-C certified within 18 months of hire,and most of that deals with pumps and vent settings. Nurses are great for doing nurse stuff,like setting up med drips and balloon pumps,but don't underestimate the knowledge ground medics have. I know many 15-20 year medics that would run circles around some of those "highly experienced" flight medics


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I'd rather be in the back with a critical care nurse and a highly experienced flight medic then a ground medic.

A medic is a medic. There are things a medic can do that an RN can't, and vice versa. Even so, trying to do much in the way of patient care in an AStar, is like trying to work a patient in the cab of an ambulance.
 
What's wrong with ground medics? They all have to take and pass the same exams and hold the same licenses. Most flight companies require medics to become FP-C certified within 18 months of hire,and most of that deals with pumps and vent settings. Nurses are great for doing nurse stuff,like setting up med drips and balloon pumps,but don't underestimate the knowledge ground medics have. I know many 15-20 year medics that would run circles around some of those "highly experienced" flight medics


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Did you not get hired in a Methods interview or something?


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A medic is a medic. There are things a medic can do that an RN can't, and vice versa. Even so, trying to do much in the way of patient care in an AStar, is like trying to work a patient in the cab of an ambulance.

Yeah sry. That just ain't true.


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It's clear you have no idea how the system, billing, etc works so I'm just wasting breath.

Jhugz, the logic above could be applied to your knowledge of what goes on in the back end. Because its obvious you don't know specifics
 
I agree the system as a whole is broken. We get times where there's a mountain or remote rescue requiring our helo and/or hoist. Once one of our rescue tech/EMTs are lowered, myself or one of our others in our office, get the patient basically stable on the ground and packaged in the stokes for the hoist; most often we meet up in a parking lot, road, LX etc, to transload with either a ground ambo if non critical, or a civil helo if critical. Works great when the timing works out.

However, it's happened more than a few times where Lifenet/Air Evac/whomever has been called and has a fairly long ETA. In one case we had the rescue complete and would be at the transload point in about 5 mins. Lifenet helo was 20+ minutes out. We could just complete the transport to the hospital and be on final approach in the time it took Lifenet to get to the transload point, but were told no, land at the transload point and await the Lifenet helo. So, we land, and I/we end up doing extended patient care in the back of our helo sitting at idle on the ground, waiting on Lifenet to get there to transfer, when the whole thing could've been completed much quicker and patient care wouldn't have been diminished.......certainly not any more than it was sitting on the ground in our helo treating the patient instead of transporting.

Why couldn't we transport? Because if we did, then Lifenet or whomever would whine/bitch/complain that we were taking business from them, since they weren't able to charge their $40,000 for a 20 mile flight. Now, I'm not saying that we should regularly transport patients because that's not our normal job (and I agree we shouldn't be normally be competing with private business), but in an exigent circumstance such as this that has happened a good few times, we end up sacrificing patient care, all for someone else's profit.

Last I checked, we did what was best for the patient.

Or do we?
 
Yeah sry. That just ain't true.


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Very much not true... I know of a company that only discovered their flight medics weren't licensed after they had been working for several months...
 
Why couldn't we transport? Because if we did, then Lifenet or whomever would whine/bitch/complain that we were taking business from them, since they weren't able to charge their $40,000 for a 20 mile flight. Now, I'm not saying that we should regularly transport patients because that's not our normal job (and I agree we shouldn't be normally be competing with private business), but in an exigent circumstance such as this that has happened a good few times, we end up sacrificing patient care, all for someone else's profit.

Last I checked, we did what was best for the patient.

Or do we?

Really? What the hell.
 
Not surprising. It's all about profits,but it shouldn't be. Some medevac crews even have to do marketing to hospitals when they aren't flying.


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On one I did recently, we took a patient out of "the sticks," to a receiving physician in "one of the world's premier health facilities" about 350 miles away. Only the airport at the destination was fogged out and the closest suitable was in "a very large city" about 80 miles by ground from the destination facility.

The worst part of it, our med crew spent a good 20 minutes with the sending doc trying to convince said doc that the patient would have received the same treatment at "adequate large town hospital" 100 miles away by air, or "adequate small city hospital" 180 miles away by air, or even at "one of the smorgasbord of hospitals in the very large city we were flying to." Sending doc throws up hands and walks away, we are stuck with the flight, at the arriving airport the ground ambulance makes the patient's family sign a paper that says she will be entirely responsible for the 80 mile ground transfer. Sending doc "did their job."
 
Really? What the hell.

Oh yes. Those companies will bitch up a storm we make a transport to the hospital that they "should've been the ones making". All because they can't generate their exorbitant bill for service. Like I said, we really should only transport civilian patients in exigent circumstances, but when those circumstances occur, then it should be accepted by all.

There are legit reasons why we don't normally transport patients day to day, but that's not what I'm referring to.
 
Oh yes. Those companies will bitch up a storm we make a transport to the hospital that they "should've been the ones making". All because they can't generate their exorbitant bill for service. Like I said, we really should only transport civilian patients in exigent circumstances, but when those circumstances occur, then it should be accepted by all.

There are legit reasons why we don't normally transport patients day to day, but that's not what I'm referring to.

So if I eat dirt while mountainbiking the McDowells, a helo on a training sortie on the MTR picks up my location, my leg has exploded and you're fully capable, equipped and willing to do an extraction… Aye yi yi.
 
Conversely, when a non-critical patient gets sent via helo and gets killed in a crash of same helo, the "why wasn't he sent by ground ambo" crowd will be out too.

I'd rather be in the back with a critical care nurse and a highly experienced flight medic then a ground medic.


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Exactly @MikeD . I give you the AMC AStar that crashed in MO. I think the widower of the lady who died in that routine IFT would disagree with hugz.
 
Oh yes. Those companies will bitch up a storm we make a transport to the hospital that they "should've been the ones making". All because they can't generate their exorbitant bill for service. Like I said, we really should only transport civilian patients in exigent circumstances, but when those circumstances occur, then it should be accepted by all.

There are legit reasons why we don't normally transport patients day to day, but that's not what I'm referring to.
We would go meet the coast guard on islands 2-3 hours away. They'd sit there waiting for us, sometimes the entire time, when the patient could have been at the hospital by the time we even got there.
 
Why couldn't we transport? Because if we did, then Lifenet or whomever would whine/bitch/complain that we were taking business from them, since they weren't able to charge their $40,000 for a 20 mile flight. Now, I'm not saying that we should regularly transport patients because that's not our normal job (and I agree we shouldn't be normally be competing with private business), but in an exigent circumstance such as this that has happened a good few times, we end up sacrificing patient care, all for someone else's profit.

Last I checked, we did what was best for the patient.

Or do we?


They got over it in MD.

As for the last part, I vote for "or do we?" I'm so glad to be out of the community-based rodeo.
 
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