AI Just Fully Controlled A Tactical Jet For The First Time Ever
- Thread starter Oxman
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BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
Roger Roger
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I guess I sort of knew there are crew operators out there where people wouldn’t brief a SID but man….I’m surprised to see so many people on here have run into it. My shop is hardly a shining example of CRM but AFAIK we all do a departure brief, even going out of home field where I’ve probably launched IFR literally 1000 times.
BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
Happened to me out of Sitka. Guy is on my no fly list now. Which I have to do re submit every month. Also why I took first available upgrade.
Not sure why anyone wouldn’t do a brief, whether it’s a simple VFR climb of heading/altitude(s) assigned in the clearance….or even just being flown to by ourselves; or whether its a formal SID and getting on the same page of headings, waypoints, altitude restrictions, altitudes for turns/crossings/top altitude, any restrictions, etc. In many aircraft this information needs to be set into something such as an altitude alert or inertial Nav. Ive always thought it standard to be setting and checking these as the SID is being briefed. Even if….and especially if…single pilot. Trying to fly it while reading it step by step, isn’t a recipe for success.
Roger Roger
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Very true re: single pilot, one of the dumbest things I’ve done in an airplane involved exactly that on a dark and stormy night in Wrangell, Alaska….
BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
Do the same thing over and over and after a while you get complacent if you get used to it enough. That’s my only explanation I can offer.
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jrh
Well-Known Member
I've seen a wide spectrum. I know somebody will come back and disagree with me, but Part 91 single pilot jet operators seem to be the worst. In my limited experience with them, they do some pretty weird stuff. As an example, one time I rode up front (definitely was not listed as a crewmember!) out of the Dallas metro area with a single pilot Citation operator who decided to file VOR to VOR since the FMS was deferred, but they didn't actually bother to tune any VORs, they just put the little blue airplane on their iPad over the little magenta line in ForeFlight. We flew a third of the way across the country like that, in the flight levels.
The times I see this type of thing coming up even in bigger operations is when there is a self-imposed rush to get in the air and neither crew member thinks to, or is willing to, hit the brakes and check all the boxes. Times when passengers show up early, there are maintenance issues to deal with prior to departure, etc. All of one's time during preflight is spent doing other stuff and all of a sudden you're rolling down the taxiway, a hundred yards from the hold short line, and there hasn't been a formal briefing of the SID. Each pilot probably looked at the SID individually, but they didn't explicitly talk about it together.
Company culture can also play into it. At my shop, we've grown over time from a little mom and pop operation to a Top 20 company nationally. When I started six years ago, formal SOPs literally didn't exist. Captains got typed in the airplane, new hire SICs went through some mediocre in-house training, then everyone went out and did pilot stuff. It was the wild west and very unstandardized. As we've grown, things have certainly improved dramatically, but it's still possible to find areas in the SOPs that are too vague, and/or pilots who don't follow them to the letter because they're not used to it and/or nobody is really making them.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
jrh
Well-Known Member
I don't know your history, but I seem to remember you worked at some place or places with pretty toxic culture. All I can say is if a pilot finds themselves in the kind of place where they can't say, "Hang on, I'm not ready for departure, I want to make sure we get this right," and the other pilot continues to blast off, you can't talk your way out of that mess, you have to walk your way out. Some things aren't worth sticking around for no matter what.
jrh
Well-Known Member
I don't think many pilots are truly not paying any attention to a SID. It's not like they're pulling the gear up and looking down at their chart to see if they should turn right or left. It's probably more an issue of being too casual about it. They glance over it real quick, think they understand it, ask the other pilot, "Did you get the ACMEE5 loaded in the box? Yep?" Ok, cool, we're ready to go now.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
Eeesh, I really don't understand this. Even out of the home drome I read the DP every freaking time because "what if I forgot something?!" I mean, it never changed, fly rwh to whatever then turn right to whatever... but yeah I don't know. Pretty much nobody dies in cruise, if you're going to be casual, be casual about cruise flight.
Not that I was always perfect or whatever, but yeah...
jrh
Well-Known Member
Not saying I'd be comfortable with it, just saying, I've seen enough to know how these scenarios might play out. Humans make mistakes and bad decisions.
If only we had, like, an airplane controlled by computers and artificial intelligence. That would probably make things better...
See what I did there?
jrh
Well-Known Member
I agree.
🦈💜
Well-Known Member
"Ready for a brief?"
"You bet."
"Alright. It's a beautiful day, sky clear, winds calm, 2968 on the altimeter. Expecting 1R for departure. Push back here with ramp, taxi most likely alpha foxtrot one bravo one right. One right is eight thousand six hundred fifty feet available, autobrakes RTO. Fire, flight control malfunctions, anything you see below V1 call out in a clear tone of voice. I will call for and accomplish rejected takeoffs prior to V1. After V1 we'll continue up to 1,000', then it's a right turn heading 135 down the bay. Clean up, get our stuff sorted out and plan for a return, 28R longest runway. We also have Oakland, San Jose, and other options if we need them. If all goes well, we're on the SSTIK departure. Climb 520, climbing left turn direct SSTIK, around to PORTE at or below 10,000 then out to SUSEY, EBAYE and on our way. They'll probably have us off on vectors in the turn, and step us around the corner. I'm planning to handfly, assuming all goes well. I didn't see any notams pertinent to our departure—a bunch of cranes, and if we're at 220' over the city we've got bigger things to worry about. Biggest threat on the departure is crossing traffic landing the 28s, so we'll make sure to visually check final before we start rolling. That's what I've got. Do you have any questions, comments, concerns?"
I can rattle a brief like that off from memory for a dozen airports. DFW, ORD, SFO, LAX, SAN, SEA, DEN (ish), etc. Same thing with arrivals. Is that a bad thing? Not really, as long as I remember to actually look at the things, think about the things, and talk about the things.
But I'm sure you can imagine that it gets old... and with the cult of "cool," we have people who will say things like "standard brief," or look at the briefing above and go "oh my god, would you stop talking already? The FO is probably asleep/rolling their eyes/etc."
Complacency is insidious. Attitudinal issues make it even worse.
jrh
Well-Known Member
A few thoughts after reading this...
There is more than one way to skin a cat, and what works well for one operator might not work as well for another.
It sounds like this format works well in an airline environment. Flying bizjets out of a different airport every day, never seeing the same field twice in a month, working with super green copilots...it all gets more gray and less black and white.
What is the purpose for a briefing and is it accomplishing its purpose? Will the other pilot remember what you rattled off if they need to? You very well might be nailing exactly what you need for the type of flying you do, I don't know.
I tend to follow a philosophy of "less is more." Smaller chunks of information, closer to the time when we'll actually be using it.
When first meeting the other pilot, I chat about the big picture stuff. Weather, aircraft maintenance status, their experience level, if they've been to these airports before, passenger special requests, etc.
When setting up the avionics, usually shortly before or shortly after engine start, talk about the clearance and brief the specific departure and any one engine inoperative flight paths to follow.
Prior to taxi, brief the expected taxi route and hot spots.
After completing all taxi checks, prior to takeoff, brief what we're going to do if things go wrong (abort, fly, recap one engine inoperative procedure, where we'll return) or if they go right (first few steps of the SID).
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
So I flew 135, and mostly single pilot, but before every takeoff I had a mnemonic that I would sit and think about in the airplane for a minute, I'd usually even "say" my briefing aloud to myself:
D-WARTS (it's funny, you can't forget it)
Departure Procedure - read the whole thing, draw it on the release / paperwork and clip it to the yoke if it's text only, but basically chair fly the whole thing.
Weather - what's the wind, vis, and when am I likely to go in the clouds, anything going to kill me
Abnormals - what are my abort thresholds/speeds, then usually I said the emergency procedure for an engine failure outloud to myself so it was in my short-term memory
Runway Condition - this is big in Alaska, abort points, softspots, slick spots, etc.
Terrain - if I get scared and am in the clouds what heading can I turn to to point away from rocks
Specials - Anything special that I care about.
Again I mostly flew little airplanes, but that kept me out of trouble the few times I had anything abnormal happen after takeoff I was prepared. Are there better mnemonics? Sure, build you're own, but I think "something" that primes you for action if you're in a jam is good, plus if you say the whole EP every time you takeoff... you keep it memorized. I started doing that after I realized "standard calls standard procedures" didn't actually remind me of anything when I thought it to myself holding short.
BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
At my shop we start with threats. You ask the other pilot what they see that could be an issue.
After that it’s your brief. I have been trying to use the laminate card on the glare shield to cover the things that people who make a lot more money than me want me to cover. However I also try and keep in between 10-15 seconds because that’s all you’re getting out of most humans.
About 10% of the time I fly SE AK. Someone just asks for the before start checklist when I pull out the laminate card. I have to stop them and say “sorry I just have to brief the relevant points. I try for under 15 seconds.” Usually after a lot of eye rolling I can get it on the CVR.
The one guy on my no fly list actually responded to each item with things like. “It doesn’t matter.” or “I don’t care.”
It was such horrible CRM I actually thought it was funny and I still got the brief on the CVR. So if we slid of the end of the runway at SIT and divers had to pull my body out of the cockpit in pieces along with the CVR, at least my family would know I’d done my job.
As I’ve said many times “This is a super easy job. You just have to follow the directions provided. Nobody likes it but that’s fine with me.”
However some people just want to make things harder than they have to be because of their perception of reality. I just hope I never get to be like that.
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