"Agency Shop"

[SpiceWeasel]

So, I saw this word out there on another forum, and it got me to thinking.... why on EARTH do we have it?

Just last week, I heard an agency shopper (ie one who pays the contract mx fee, but isn't a part of the union), criticizing the folks who voted no on contract 09 (well 05, really).... that sorta annoyed me, in that, someone who's getting a free ride at this place has the gall to take sides on a vote....

To me, it's one thing to get a "free ride" as a pilot who's getting the benefits that ALPA has put forth over its history.... but to employed at a unionized carrier and allowed to not be a union member.... whaaaaaa?

 

[surreal1221]

Weak Americans

 

[Green Hall]

Just last week, I heard an agency shopper (ie one who pays the contract mx fee, but isn't a part of the union), criticizing the folks who voted no on contract 09 (well 05, really).... that sorta annoyed me, in that, someone who's getting a free ride at this place has the gall to take sides on a vote....

That would irritate me, too Cencal. But I don't understand how you figure he's getting a "free ride." His contract maintenance fees are paying for the benefits of the contract he enjoys.

And he is entitled to his opinion.

However, since he's not a member in good standing, he can't vote on issues or rep elections so his opinions can't have an effect on the outcomes of issues facing your pilot group.

That makes him a smoke blower at best. Just laugh him off. He's the real loser. He's paying an equivalent amount to dues and loses the most important benefits of the Union.

Just let him yak.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

That would irritate me, too Cencal. But I don't understand how you figure he's getting a "free ride." His contract maintenance fees are paying for the benefits of the contract he enjoys.

And he is entitled to his opinion.

However, since he's not a member in good standing, he can't vote on issues or rep elections so his opinions can't have an effect on the outcomes of issues facing your pilot group.

That makes him a smoke blower at best. Just laugh him off. He's the real loser. He's paying an equivalent amount to dues and loses the most important benefits of the Union.

Just let him yak.

Well let me go on record here and state I'm no "hard core trade unionist".... but I know for a fact that we've got people who would deny a guy like him a jumpseat because, even though he pays dues, he is (sort of) saying "I don't like my union".

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

The whole reason we have agency shop is because of morons like him. Prior to agency shop provisions, that moron could have worked at PCL, benefited from the union contract, but not had to pay a dime if he didn't join the union. Agency shop fixed that, and now he has to pay the same thing as everyone else. Agency shop is a wonderful thing. It's just a shame that the government won't let us use "closed shops," which prevent the hiring of anyone that refuses to join the union.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

The whole reason we have agency shop is because of morons like him. Prior to agency shop provisions, that moron could have worked at PCL, benefited from the union contract, but not had to pay a dime if he didn't join the union. Agency shop fixed that, and now he has to pay the same thing as everyone else. Agency shop is a wonderful thing. It's just a shame that the government won't let us use "closed shops," which prevent the hiring of anyone that refuses to join the union.

Is this an RLA restriction? When I was in the grocery business it was closed shop.... 6 months and you had to join or they couldn't schedule any more shifts...

 

[Green Hall]

Well let me go on record here and state I'm no "hard core trade unionist".... but I know for a fact that we've got people who would deny a guy like him a jumpseat because, even though he pays dues, he is (sort of) saying "I don't like my union".

Even though he's a "negative Nancy" he shouldn't be denied a jumpseat. He is, after all, paying the equivalent of dues. Now if he's a distraction in the cockpit, that could be enough of a reason for denial.

Most agency shops have the ability to petition the Company to fire someone if they refuse to pay their contract maintenance fee.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Is this an RLA restriction? When I was in the grocery business it was closed shop.... 6 months and you had to join or they couldn't schedule any more shifts...

You probably misunderstood their rules. They probably required you to pay after 6 months, but not to join. The Taft-Hartley Act made closed shops illegal in the United States many decades ago.

Even though he's a "negative Nancy" he shouldn't be denied a jumpseat. He is, after all, paying the equivalent of dues.

I know Doug doesn't like it, but I'm going to disagree. If he's not a member, he shouldn't ride. He's paying agency fees because he's reaping the benefits of the union contract, not because he should get access to all of our other privileges. The jumpseat should be excluded, just like the ability to vote, attend meetings, post on the union forum, etc...

 

[SpiceWeasel]

You probably misunderstood their rules. They probably required you to pay after 6 months, but not to join. The Taft-Hartley Act made closed shops illegal in the United States many decades ago.

Thanks.... you're so respectful of others' knowledge Todd. Whatever it is, I know for a fact that whether or not you're a union member, you could NOT work if you didn't start paying the "dues" or join.... whatever. You were not allowed to work.... simple?

I know Doug doesn't like it, but I'm going to disagree. If he's not a member, he shouldn't ride. He's paying agency fees because he's reaping the benefits of the union contract, not because he should get access to all of our other privileges. The jumpseat should be excluded, just like the ability to vote, attend meetings, post on the union forum, etc...

Ai-ai-ai. Looking at the protection list.... I find it hard to believe that you'd be able to throw in "looking up a jumpseaters name" on this list in time to say yay or nay...

As an aside - if a non-union airline was the only service to where you lived, would you simply find another way to get home, or would you utilize a negotiated benefit between your companies? Skywest for example.... I have no problem letting those guys jumpseat.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

Thats just a agency or union shop. You had to pay either the contract fee or join the union. The taft hardley act is from like the 40s. A closed shop would say you had to join the union, or that the employeer could only hire union members. The only kind of way to get around it at all is hiring halls, and even then you don't have to join the union per se.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

A. UNION SECURITY All employees shall, as a condition of employment, pay to the Union the
initiation fees and/or reinstatement fees and periodic dues lawfully required by the Union. This obligation
shall commence on the thirty-first (31st) day following the date of employment by the Employer who is
signatory to this Agreement, or the effective date of this Agreement, or the date of signature, whichever is
later.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Ai-ai-ai. Looking at the protection list.... I find it hard to believe that you'd be able to throw in "looking up a jumpseaters name" on this list in time to say yay or nay...

It's pretty easy, actually.

Jumpseater: Hey, Captain. I'm John Doe, and I was wondering if I could catch a ride.

Captain: Sure. Can I see your union card?

Jumpseats: Um, well, I don't really have one.

Captain: How about your union pin? Do you have one of those?

Jumpseater: Well, no. I'm not really a member.

Captain: Well, that's a shame. Guess you'll be catching the next flight.

As an aside - if a non-union airline was the only service to where you lived, would you simply find another way to get home, or would you utilize a negotiated benefit between your companies? Skywest for example.... I have no problem letting those guys jumpseat.

I haven't jumpseated on SkyWest ever since the ALPA vote failed. Since a new drive is probably starting up, I would ride and try to spread the gospel. But unless there is an active drive going on, I won't request a ride from a non-union airline. I did, however, allow non-union pilots to jumpseat if they told me they were pro-union. Sure, some were lying, but that's between them and their god. I did ask, though.

Thats just a agency or union shop. You had to pay either the contract fee or join the union. The taft hardley act is from like the 40s. A closed shop would say you had to join the union, or that the employeer could only hire union members. The only kind of way to get around it at all is hiring halls, and even then you don't have to join the union per se.

Bingo.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

It's pretty easy, actually.

Jumpseater: Hey, Captain. I'm John Doe, and I was wondering if I could catch a ride.

Captain: Sure. Can I see your union card?

Jumpseats: Um, well, I don't really have one.

Captain: How about your union pin? Do you have one of those?

Jumpseater: Well, no. I'm not really a member.

Captain: Well, that's a shame. Guess you'll be catching the next flight.

So, you'd bypass checking the list huh? I don't foresee that much difficulty in procuring a union card even after crossing the line....

look at some of the airlines on the list.... ALPA didn't seem to mind letting some of those guys back....

What if the Captain you're flying with doesn't do such a check?

I haven't jumpseated on SkyWest ever since the ALPA vote failed. Since a new drive is probably starting up, I would ride and try to spread the gospel. But unless there is an active drive going on, I won't request a ride from a non-union airline. I did, however, allow non-union pilots to jumpseat if they told me they were pro-union. Sure, some were lying, but that's between them and their god. I did ask, though.

So, if I'm not "pro-union" but I'm a dues paying member in good standing with a union card, you'd deny a ride?

Bingo.

Well, they must just do a better job of brainwashing, those guys at UFCW.... since I'm 99.99999% sure that there was no such talk as "agency shop".... it was, you sign up to pay or you don't work...

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

So, you'd bypass checking the list huh? I don't foresee that much difficulty in procuring a union card even after crossing the line....

look at some of the airlines on the list.... ALPA didn't seem to mind letting some of those guys back....

If they're members in good standing, they should get a ride. There are tons of pilots at CAL that have their name on "the list," but they are now members in good standing. I wouldn't deny them.

What if the Captain you're flying with doesn't do such a check?

It's his jumpseat, so it's his decision. I'd talk to him about it later, though.

Well, they must just do a better job of brainwashing, those guys at UFCW.... since I'm 99.99999% sure that there was no such talk as "agency shop".... it was, you sign up to pay or you don't work...

Here's the relevant part of the Wikipedia article, but you can read the entire Taft-Hartley Act if you don't believe me or Wikipedia:

Under the National Labor Relations Act (NLRA), as amended by the Taft-Hartley Act, a union may only require that employees either join the union or pay the equivalent of union dues. Nonmembers who object to that requirement may only be compelled to pay that portion of union dues that is attributable to the cost of representing employees in collective bargaining and in providing services to all represented employees, but not, with certain exceptions, to the union's political activities or organizing employees of other employers.​

 

[FlyChicaga]

If they're members in good standing, they should get a ride. There are tons of pilots at CAL that have their name on "the list," but they are now members in good standing. I wouldn't deny them.

There you have it folks, the hypocrisy of unionism at it's finest.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

If they're members in good standing, they should get a ride. There are tons of pilots at CAL that have their name on "the list," but they are now members in good standing. I wouldn't deny them.

So what's the point of denying ANYONE if you're not going to deny someone "on the list"....

So, yeah, I've got a guy who crossed the line, but we forgave him.... but since you've got no union card, you're scum of the earth, evil, using our negotiated benefits with no outlay of your own...

It's his jumpseat, so it's his decision. I'd talk to him about it later, though.

And if I were the CA, I'd probably laugh off a "discussion" of who I admit on my jumpseat. To each his own...

Here's the relevant part of the Wikipedia article, but you can read the entire Taft-Hartley Act if you don't believe me or Wikipedia:

Under the National Labor Relations Act (NLRA), as amended by the Taft-Hartley Act, a union may only require that employees either join the union or pay the equivalent of union dues. Nonmembers who object to that requirement may only be compelled to pay that portion of union dues that is attributable to the cost of representing employees in collective bargaining and in providing services to all represented employees, but not, with certain exceptions, to the union's political activities or organizing employees of other employers.​

Ok, so that's a portion of the Taft-Hartley act. Are we on the same page though? If you don't start paying dues of SOME sort within 31 days, the employer may no longer use your services.....

 

[SpiceWeasel]

I appreciate your candor, though, Todd. If and when I manage to make the plunge to Captain, I will be the man who says "Bring Your Tired, Your Poor, Your Huddled Masses Yearning to go home"... as long as the guy is courteous and professional, he's got a ride. And, btw, I've been researching the issue, ALPA's stance on it, and since PCL ALPA doesn't have its ducks in a row on our internal website (our document list is at least 4 years out of date, but of course, they don't like volunteers).... all I found was on jumpseat.alpa.org.... which had some things that stood out:

"No Pilot Left Behind"

"Always be the consummate professional while jumpseating.
It is one of the most valuable career benefits we have!"

Read those very carefully. On official ALPA website, no mention of denying the scum the jumpseat. In fact, it seems to indicate that they welcome pilots with open arms because it's a CAREER benefit, not a UNION benefit.

If CASS didn't exist, you'd deny the non-union folks at 135 gigs too, I assume...

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

There you have it folks, the hypocrisy of unionism at it's finest.

How is that hypocrisy? Many of the people you find on that list are now dedicated union volunteers. One of them became an MEC Chairman. People make mistakes. As long as they acknowledge them and make amends, I have no problems.

So what's the point of denying ANYONE if you're not going to deny someone "on the list"....

I think there's a big difference between someone who's currently choosing to not join than someone who is an active member in good standing.

Ok, so that's a portion of the Taft-Hartley act. Are we on the same page though? If you don't start paying dues of SOME sort within 31 days, the employer may no longer use your services.....

Yep. That's called agency shop. Just so everyone understandings the difference, there are three different kinds of "union shops:"

Open shop - anyone can work there, and they have no requirement to join or even pay any sort of fee or dues.

Agency shop - you aren't required to join the union, but you are required to pay agency fees, which are usually the same as union dues. If you protest the full union dues, then you can pay a very slightly reduced rate that subtracts out the political lobbying costs.

Closed shop - you can't be employed unless you not only pay dues, but also join the union. Outlawed in the United States (unfortunately).

 

[jtrain609]

How is that hypocrisy? Many of the people you find on that list are now dedicated union volunteers. One of them became an MEC Chairman. People make mistakes. As long as they acknowledge them and make amends, I have no problems.

To some people, union members like my grandfather who struck and switched careers to digging ditches at the age of 48 instead of crossing a picket line, there is a special level of hell that is reserved for scabs, and to many of those people, there is no coming back.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

And, btw, I've been researching the issue, ALPA's stance on it, and since PCL ALPA doesn't have its ducks in a row on our internal website (our document list is at least 4 years out of date, but of course, they don't like volunteers).... all I found was on jumpseat.alpa.org.... which had some things that stood out:

"No Pilot Left Behind"

"Always be the consummate professional while jumpseating.
It is one of the most valuable career benefits we have!"

Read those very carefully. On official ALPA website, no mention of denying the scum the jumpseat. In fact, it seems to indicate that they welcome pilots with open arms because it's a CAREER benefit, not a UNION benefit.

I think you're reading too much into the words "career benefit." There are widely varying opinions among jumpseat chairmen as to what should be done with non-members, alter-ego pilots, and any other category you can think of. Because of this, ALPA make no official policy regarding whether you should take any of the above or not. ALPA's position is always clear: Captain's authority supersedes all else.

If CASS didn't exist, you'd deny the non-union folks at 135 gigs too, I assume...

Nope, I used to let them ride all the time. Part 135 is not a union industry, so I don't expect them to be union members. Part 121 is a bit different.