Aeronautical experience

🦈💜

Well-Known Member
For a long, long time I've read people talking about the problem of time-building flight instructors, and how backwards it is that flight instructors who teach primary students are, themselves, typically on their first aviation job; I rather agree with that, even though I'm soon to be there myself. The benefits of the system would seem to be disproportionately going to the 'young' (in hours) CFI, and the most important part of training gets relegated to those with the least relatable experience.

So in an ideal world, CFIs would be highly paid, highly respected experienced aviation professionals.

People also generally agree that we shouldn't be hiring 300 hour pilots into the airlines -- soon there will be a rule in place to fix that.

All the places cited for 'new pilots' to 'pay their dues', jobs like 'flying jumpers', 'aerial photography', etc, all require 500-600 hours minimum for insurance. 'Freight', often cited, typically requires 135 mins for obvious reasons.

So, all that lead up is to ask this: In the aforementioned 'ideal world', how is that 300-hour gap between 'commercial pilot' and 'working pilot' filled?

-Fox
 
I flew traffic for a couple hundred hours before I started working as a full time CFI. My flight school owned the contract on the traffic aircraft.

I see nothing wrong with hiring brand new CFI's to instruct. Any aviation job, regardless of how much experience you have, will have it's own particular "ins and outs" to learn before feeling completely comfortable and instructing is no different. A brand new instructor is certainly capable of giving quality instruction to primary students as long as he/she has a solid learning foundation to draw from.
 
$100 hamburgers. What's wrong with grabbing an airplane and having some fun as a way to get some hours? I think people often forget that an airplane can be recreational rather than just a means of transportation or a job.
 
$100 hamburgers. What's wrong with grabbing an airplane and having some fun as a way to get some hours? I think people often forget that an airplane can be recreational rather than just a means of transportation or a job.

Oh, certainly. The trouble with that approach, speaking categorically, is that at $120/hr for a basic 172 that hundred dollar hamburger is now a $250 hamburger (minus the cost of the actual hamburger), and 300 hours of hundred dollar hamburgers is about $40k ... less the cost of the hamburgers. ;>

It's the approach I've been taking, mind you, but it adds up very fast even when you make a lot of money. For the average Jane, we're talking a huge percentage of income over a very, very long period of time to gain the requisite time ... for better or worse.

-Fox
 
I flew traffic for a couple hundred hours before I started working as a full time CFI. My flight school owned the contract on the traffic aircraft.

That's fortunate; I suppose in a profession where networking is king (though most are), who you know is very important ... but it can be very random. You can spend your entire life being the most awesome hard-working line service tech, spending all your off hours busting your butt to make yourself marketable ... and never meet 'the right people' or find the right opportunity, so "networking" or "being in the right place at the right time" is a tough angle.

I see nothing wrong with hiring brand new CFI's to instruct. A brand new instructor is certainly capable of giving quality instruction to primary students as long as he/she has a solid learning foundation to draw from.

I'll grant you that, but I do personally feel that "reentrant" instructors often have more to offer. My best experiences in aviation have been with a corsair pilot, a former gulf helo pilot, a banner tow pilot with significant experience, and a 30-year professional flight instructor who's never done anything else. And yet of the four, the professional flight instructor--as good an educator as he is, and as much as he knows--doesn't have the same edge as the other three in many things.

Horses for courses, perhaps?

-Fox
 
Theres no easy way to build time, and the ideal way is to get paid to do it. The only job that falls in that space is instructing. I think it would be best if a 300hr pilot weren't allowed to teach other pilots, but theres just no other way around it.

I look back when i was actively instructing and wonder in amazement how i actually had any students pass a check ride. I thought i knew what i was doing, but looking back some 4000 hours later, i realize i didnt have a clue. In a perfect world, we would all be taught by bob hoover, but bob hoover aint gonna teach students for 35 bucks an hour, so this is what were left with.
 
Hi Fox,

This is a very good question, I have found pilots often preach 'paying your dues' but have trouble coming up with a solution, as the industry has changed significantly since many pilots had to pay their dues. When I was flying in Australia, my instructor was very impressed that I was a 'Flying Instructor' at my young age - he explained to me, that most of the instructors that teach career track pilots, are retired airline / air force / bush pilots whom are looking for a more stable 8-5 job, and be home with the family at night. The pay can and is very lucrative, especially at airline sponsored training facilities such as Flight Training Adelaide, where some of the instructors can easily make in excess of 100,000, annually. My instructor was quite shocked when he found out how little we instructors made in the states, and that we teach 'primary students' without any real experience.

Obviously, a pilot in an airline cockpit, as a 'first officer', as the 'Second in Command' is a huge responsibility. You are the second to last line of defense on the aircrafts flight deck, and is a position with a huge amount of responsibility. I have just hit my ATP minimums, and feel competent on the flight deck, but still make a point in letting the captain know, that I am still new at this, and welcome, and encourage any tips and opinions that will make our duties flight go as smooth, and safe as possible. I have ran in to a few colleagues, and even aviation professionals that parallel working for a 'regional' (b-Scale) airline, to playing for the minor leagues, and once again, we are 'paying our dues.' This mentality is the fundamental problem. Our 35 - 99 passengers did not pay for a minor league game, and they certainly did not pay for the errors, that often accompany a minor league game. They paid for the major league, and honestly they do not care whom the flight is operated by, it says DELTA, there for it is DELTA.

Back to your question. What needs to change is pilot training. The worlds militaries have been very successful in putting zero time pilots, and training them to the razors edge. This training needs to be duplicated in the civilian world, and yes, it was cost significantly more, but it would have significantly more oversight. Fortunately, (or unfortunately) the aircraft we fly now are so advanced that many poor pilots, slip through the cracks and never have the opportunity to prove their uselessness. This does not change the fact that training needs to improve across the board. As I type this, I see a banner below advertising a '90 Day Fast Track' - not to start a flame war, but it should take longer to become an airline pilot, that a hair stylist. I have read, and talked to a few lobbyist, and a solution that has been brought up is the 'National Civilian Pilot Academy' ALPA could, and should be a part of this, and make this program on par to a 'post graduate' program. This academy should be competitive entry, and free, intact the trainees should be paid. At this school, pilot are trained, and subsequent checked with through check-rides, that do not have fiscal motivation for an applicants pass or failure. I still believe that experience is key, and once this program is completed, the new commercial pilot, would be required to instruct, ferry aircraft, fly the academies leaders on time critical assignments, but with a significant oversight. There are a lot more facets of this, but think of a hybrid between our Militaries UPT, and JAA style FTO's.

I hope this will happen someday, but it probably will take even more accidents where lack of pilot experice is cited as a contributing factor, till things start to change.

Good luck instructing!

Cheers!
 
Also, i dont think its fair to compare military training with civilian training. Not to sound like a doucher, but the military turns people away. Show up with enough money and any civilian flight school can get you a license.

I'm not military BTW, i just think people forget now days that there is still such a thing as "the right stuff," and some people just dont have it.
 
Also, i dont think its fair to compare military training with civilian training. Not to sound like a doucher, but the military turns people away. Show up with enough money and any civilian flight school can get you a license.

I'm not military BTW, i just think people forget now days that there is still such a thing as "the right stuff," and some people just dont have it.

True. Not many civilian schools or FBOs with a washout rate of any kind. In the military, there's no being a "professional student", you meet the standards or you're gone.
 
Also, i dont think its fair to compare military training with civilian training. Not to sound like a doucher, but the military turns people away. Show up with enough money and any civilian flight school can get you a license.

I'm not military BTW, i just think people forget now days that there is still such a thing as "the right stuff," and some people just dont have it.

2.

If you suck in pilot training and hook the wrong rides, you are gone. My UPT class had over 20% attrition.

4 flights in a row, and you're gonez0. That can be one week if y'all are keeping count.
 
2.

If you suck in pilot training and hook the wrong rides, you are gone. My UPT class had over 20% attrition.

4 flights in a row, and you're gonez0. That can be one week if y'all are keeping count.

My class, 32 started, 15 graduated (not including one to helo, one to Corpus)
 
I know that there are aspects of military pilot training that could be integrated into civilian pilot training. This thread solidifies my perception, that only those with 'hands of gold' protect our great nation - which I am very glad, and thankful for! All my post suggested was to emulate military pilot training, and modify it to fit civilian world. As previously mentioned, if one umbrella organization was sponsoring the civilian pilot training, their would be no ulterior fiscal motive to continue training a weak pilot. Cathay Pacific, Singapre Airlines, Emirates, and a few European Airlines prove this, and have a similar program, and what I understand, they have no qualms firing a weak pilot either.

Thanks for protecting out country!
Cheers.
 
I know that there are aspects of military pilot training that could be integrated into civilian pilot training. This thread solidifies my perception, that only those with 'hands of gold' protect our great nation - which I am very glad, and thankful for! All my post suggested was to emulate military pilot training, and modify it to fit civilian world. As previously mentioned, if one umbrella organization was sponsoring the civilian pilot training, their would be no ulterior fiscal motive to continue training a weak pilot. Cathay Pacific, Singapre Airlines, Emirates, and a few European Airlines prove this, and have a similar program, and what I understand, they have no qualms firing a weak pilot either.

Thanks for protecting out country!
Cheers.

I agree. There are aspects of the two which can be combined, the only problem will be overcoming some of the hurdles of civilian pilot training, such as "money talks", ie- so long as it's there, there's always the place for the person who doesn't meet standards, just keep them flying with a CFI. Not talking the student going for professional training, but moreso the private student.

That said, in civilian aviation, consider that priorities are different and varied......wide-ranging from one student to another. Some want to be professional pilots, others want to just be recreational, and that's going to drive how that customer is treated. And that's a big thing: the customer.

In the military, there is no customer. You hack it to standard, or you don't. From there, the standard varies.....those at the top of the standard, and those just barely meeting the standard; further divides made from there.
 
I know that there are aspects of military pilot training that could be integrated into civilian pilot training. This thread solidifies my perception, that only those with 'hands of gold' protect our great nation - which I am very glad, and thankful for! All my post suggested was to emulate military pilot training, and modify it to fit civilian world. As previously mentioned, if one umbrella organization was sponsoring the civilian pilot training, their would be no ulterior fiscal motive to continue training a weak pilot. Cathay Pacific, Singapre Airlines, Emirates, and a few European Airlines prove this, and have a similar program, and what I understand, they have no qualms firing a weak pilot either.

Thanks for protecting out country!
Cheers.

Well, if were going to go down that road, i dont think i could say a military type program would be a perfect fit for the civilian world. While there are plenty of military pilots with "hands of gold," that doesnt really mean that its going to solve all of the problems. While expertly trained, a military pilot might go an entire career with what, 2500 hours? IMHO more training isnt the answer to the problem, its more experience that will solve things.

Not to knock anyone, but ive seen 2000 hour navy IPs who couldnt fly a 172 down to mins to save their life. Not to say they cant fly, they just cant transfer high tech over to low tech. Its a two way street.
 
While expertly trained, a military pilot might go an entire career with what, 2500 hours? IMHO more training isnt the answer to the problem, its more experience that will solve things.

.

Two things:

1. The quality of that 2500 hours is very high quality experience.

2. It depends.....2500 hours for a fighter guy? Likely. A transport guy.....more like 3 times that.
 
Two things:

1. The quality of that 2500 hours is very high quality experience.

2. It depends.....2500 hours for a fighter guy? Likely. A transport guy.....more like 3 times that.

It is very high quality experience, but trying to liken it to a cadet program is comparing apples to oranges. No matter what, i have a problem with someone with no PIC time to speak of going straight to the right seat. I think what we really lack right now is decision making abilities by pilots, and im by no means god's gift to aviation, but i know a bad situation when i see one, and thats just not something you can train. It only comes with experience.
 
It is very high quality experience, but trying to liken it to a cadet program is comparing apples to oranges. No matter what, i have a problem with someone with no PIC time to speak of going straight to the right seat. I think what we really lack right now is decision making abilities by pilots, and im by no means god's gift to aviation, but i know a bad situation when i see one, and thats just not something you can train. It only comes with experience.

I agree with the no PIC time and going to the right seat. Agree with the rest of your post too.
 
I agree with the no PIC thing also - that's their solution, it works for them, but I agree with y'all, I learned some invaluable lessons in my first 700 hours of PIC - I am just proposing an option that takes all of these variables, and creates the airline pilot of the 21 century. We are all aviation professionals, wouldn't it be awesome to merge all of this experience, and expertise and make a change that preserves, (and improves) the profession, and trains the best aviators?

Cheers!
 
I agree with the no PIC thing also - that's their solution, it works for them, but I agree with y'all, I learned some invaluable lessons in my first 700 hours of PIC - I am just proposing an option that takes all of these variables, and creates the airline pilot of the 21 century. We are all aviation professionals, wouldn't it be awesome to merge all of this experience, and expertise and make a change that preserves, (and improves) the profession, and trains the best aviators?

Cheers!

.
I recall an initial feeling of fear at Air Force pilot training when first shown T-37 & T-38 cockpits and a stack of manuals. . My first thought was that the other guys starting with me must be awfully smart if they can absorb all of this, and I had doubts as to whether I could absorb that much information in the time allotted. What I didn't understand yet was how good the AF was at the business of training, and that I would soon have those manuals committed to memory. . Among their other tricks, they teach using Total Immersion methods.

One thing about Air Force (and I assume Navy) military training that civilians may not be able to relate to is that it is Total Immersion and high unrelenting pressure. . We talked, ate, drank, played and in my case, slept flying. . When we took a little free rec time to play soccer or scuba dive, we took it only with other students, and we tended to talk a little flying even then. . I don't know about today, but when we cited a rule then, we were expected to be able to cite the exact source, down to the chapter and page number if possible. As an instructor, for those that made it that far, that was expected of us, and many of us did have source page numbers and columns memorized.

That type of Total Immersion, surrounded by other fanatically dedicated students, drives military students to higher levels than they would reach in a civilian "customer first", self-paced environment. . When I'm around civilian flight schools, then and now, that type of dedication would probably be viewed as some type of obsessive compulsive disorder, but it was the norm at UPT. .

I'm not familiar enough with civilian training programs to know if anything like that exists in the civilian world. . My assumption was that anyone willing to take that type of abuse (including lots of acro), and enjoy it, just goes military. .What I'm wondering is, how would a civilian student who wanted to achieve that type of total immersion, complete dedication, sink-or-swim training, duplicate that? . What's the closest thing to it in the civilian world if you want that type of training, but you can't go military?

.
 
Back
Top