Aerobatics in Training Aircraft

May be a stupid question but after it was determined that the CFI did aerobatics in several different planes used by the flight school, would they give their planes a nice mx check to look for anything out of the norm? Any stress cracks, etc?
 
I don't get angry about many things, but this is one of them. Aerobatics like this are one of the worst mixes of stupidity, arrogance, and recklessness that I can think of. It's the epitome of shoddy piloting and even worse instructing.

These accidents are 100% completely preventable. There was no reason for those three people to die. Period. Fatalities happen every year for reasons that are at least somewhat out of the pilot's control (weather, maintenance, etc.), but aerobatics? Come on. Nobody *has* to do a "snap roll" or whatever it was they were doing at the time of the crash.

Tgrayson doesn't think the pilots who need to learn their lesson will learn from this. I hope that's not the case. Hopefully somebody, somewhere will make a difference. Maybe flight school management somewhere will take aerobatics more seriously, or at least the friends of these pilots who died will pass on the seriousness of aerobatics to everyone they know.
 
FiveO said:
May be a stupid question but after it was determined that the CFI did aerobatics in several different planes used by the flight school, would they give their planes a nice mx check to look for anything out of the norm? Any stress cracks, etc?
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Probably should.

The thing about aerobatic manuvers is that the stress they put on the airframe goes up on a curve. Light acro barely flexes anything. G loads stay well within the safety margins. However if it gets just a little away from you, Snap! You could go from 2.2 to 13 VERY quickly if you screw up a manuver.
 
WacoFan said:
As I stated before, accelerometers in rentals would be a neat thing - a remotely placed one that couldn't be reset.
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It would have to be checked after every flight. Maybe like a hobbes setting. I guess you could buy a G meter and take the reset button off it, only to be reset by mnx...
FiveO said:
May be a stupid question but after it was determined that the CFI did aerobatics in several different planes used by the flight school, would they give their planes a nice mx check to look for anything out of the norm? Any stress cracks, etc?
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I had the exact same question, not so stupid.
Douglas said:
I am glad you feel better. :rolleyes:
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Many reasonable folks who have flown older aircraft, worry about fatigue and undetected stress damage on aircraft. Especially ones that are or were trainers. Flying along fat dumb and happy and having an inflight structural failure on a xcountry is rare. In a sense having a tragic accident be correlated to judgement error, that is preventable, is reassuring on one level.
 
I used to be scared out of my mind when we would drop meat-missiles out of the twin otter. I know one of the other guys who flew it would spin that thing and snap roll it all the way to the ground for fun. I would just hope the wings would hold for us to fly the plane normally.
 
SFCC/UND said:
Yes

seriously yes.
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:rolleyes::rolleyes:
Ah the internets, where a CFI with barely any experience can make an assinine statement reflecting very poorly on his aeronautical judgement in relative anonymity. Then, upon receiving a gentle rebuke from an experience fighter pilot, can back talk like a kid.
 
FiveO said:
I used to be scared out of my mind when we would drop meat-missiles out of the twin otter. I know one of the other guys who flew it would spin that thing and snap roll it all the way to the ground for fun. I would just hope the wings would hold for us to fly the plane normally.
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I would be afraid to ride in any Twin Otter.I have seen at least 3 separate airframes rolled, spun, and LOOPED in the same flight!!! Scary stuff
 
Hacker15e said:
Okay, well evidently I'm going to have to be more specific, since you apparently don't get it.



No, we don't become different people when we fly -- we are exactly the same person. Behavior outside of the cockpit is a pretty good indicator of behavior in the cockpit. That's why your next statement is troubling.



First off, "doing things I shouldn't be doing" is a big, gigantic red flag and completely violates the core principles of being a professional. The concept of flight discipline means that you thoroughly know the rules and physical limitations of your machine and abide by them -- especially when nobody is looking over your shoulder.

Second, doing those things does NOT "test your flying skills". Doing things you shouldn't be doing is a recipe for ending up a big smoking hole in the dirt. If you feel the need to test yourself, go see how fast you can learn and master something that you are being taught by a qualified professional.
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I knew that you were going to do this and you're going to make me have to type.

First off did you really think that you become a different person? No we don't go through a sex change we fly. Yes our behavior is different when we do fly, hence the different people comment.

Second, the first time you did zero gravity, chandelles, steep turn, stalls, and eights on pylons, didn't it make you want to become better at it? Try and master your skills? I don't see how this is affecting your core principles, but again I'm not you.

If you had a question about my statement you can pm anytime.
 
granlistillo said:
Flying along fat dumb and happy and having an inflight structural failure on a xcountry is rare.
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That is a big, "of course".
-----
I like how so many people can say that they haven't done something stupid in an airplane.

"Push the limits? What, me? Never!"

right

EDIT: One man's stupidity is another mans common sense.
I have done plenty of stupid things in an airplane that some would consider common sense and vice-versa.
 
SFCC/UND said:
Second, the first time you did zero gravity, chandelles, steep turn, stalls, and eights on pylons, didn't it make you want to become better at it? Try and master your skills?
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The difference is, these were never "things I shouldn't be doing".

You've got to be a joke.
 
SFCC/UND said:
First off did you really think that you become a different person? No we don't go through a sex change we fly. Yes our behavior is different when we do fly, hence the different people comment.
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Would you mind explaining in more detail how behavior changes when a person flies?

I can say without a doubt that my own behavior changes very little--and if it does, it becomes slightly more conservative. I'm very aware that my reputation, income, and ultimately, my life are all on the line every time I get behind the controls of an aircraft.

Do I ever take risks? Of course. Everybody takes risks to some degree. But the risks I take are carefully calculated and managed. I don't go and do things that I know I shouldn't do.

Flying is not a Jekyll and Hyde activity. It requires caution to last any length of time. Getting a thrill from something is not an excuse to throw logic out the window and do something stupid. An adrenaline rush does not make dangerous behavior acceptable.
 
jrh said:
Would you mind explaining in more detail how behavior changes when a person flies?

I can say without a doubt that my own behavior changes very little--and if it does, it becomes slightly more conservative. I'm very aware that my reputation, income, and ultimately, my life are all on the line every time I get behind the controls of an aircraft.

Do I ever take risks? Of course. Everybody takes risks to some degree. But the risks I take are carefully calculated and managed. I don't go and do things that I know I shouldn't do.

Flying is not a Jekyll and Hyde activity. It requires caution to last any length of time. Getting a thrill from something is not an excuse to throw logic out the window and do something stupid. An adrenaline rush does not make dangerous behavior acceptable.
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Why should I, you basically said it yourself. Every person is different, some people are conservative, anxious, vomiting, thrill seeker, happy, sad, and, frustrated. I remember I was flying and I had a guy that all he wanted to do was fly into the clouds and do commercial maneuvers, even though he is only a private pilot.
 
Douglas said:
I am glad you feel better. :rolleyes:
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Well it's the same as when my friend put the plane we co-owned into Tampa Bay last year ... I felt a lot better when it became obvious that it was gross pilot error than I did when I thought the wings could have fallen off of our airplane. That's all independent of my saddness in his death, and the death of his two passengers.
 
SFCC/UND said:
Why should I, you basically said it yourself. Every person is different, some people are conservative, anxious, vomiting, thrill seeker, happy, sad, and, frustrated. I remember I was flying and I had a guy that all he wanted to do was fly into the clouds and do commercial maneuvers, even though he is only a private pilot.
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Ok.

The only point I tried to make is that saying "I'm a different person when I fly" is not an acceptable reason for behaving dangerously ("I do things I know I shouldn't do" = dangerous).

If a person's mental state changes to the point that they aren't capable of making good decisions when they fly, they aren't cut out to be a pilot.

We all have urges to do things we shouldn't do. The other day I briefly pondered if it would be possible to takeoff on the taxiway that leads to my t-hangar. I pondered it, concluded that it's probably possible, but I didn't do it. I resisted the urge. Ultimately I knew such an action would be unsafe, illegal, and bad for my life in pretty much every way possible.

Being able to make these decisions is one of the many skills that distinguish professional pilots from thrill seekers who will eventually end up smoking holes in the ground.
 
Murdoughnut said:
Well it's the same as when my friend put the plane we co-owned into Tampa Bay last year ... I felt a lot better when it became obvious that it was gross pilot error than I did when I thought the wings could have fallen off of our airplane. That's all independent of my saddness in his death, and the death of his two passengers.
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Sorry about your loss Murdoughnut.
 
jrh said:
Ok.

The only point I tried to make is that saying "I'm a different person when I fly" is not an acceptable reason for behaving dangerously ("I do things I know I shouldn't do" = dangerous).

If a person's mental state changes to the point that they aren't capable of making good decisions when they fly, they aren't cut out to be a pilot.

We all have urges to do things we shouldn't do. The other day I briefly pondered if it would be possible to takeoff on the taxiway that leads to my t-hangar. I pondered it, concluded that it's probably possible, but I didn't do it. I resisted the urge. Ultimately I knew such an action would be unsafe, illegal, and bad for my life in pretty much every way possible.

Being able to make these decisions is one of the many skills that distinguish professional pilots from thrill seekers who will eventually end up smoking holes in the ground.
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Is it illegal to takeoff or land on a taxiway? I though you could land damn near anywhere you wanted as long as you had permission or it was on private land.
 
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