Advisory Panel Considers ATP Hour Reduction

Flyinthrew

Flyinthrew

Well-Known Member
http://www.wsj.com/articles/advisory-panel-would-relax-rules-for-co-pilot-experience-1472808602

Some in the industry believe that reducing military pilot mins for an ATP from 750 to 500 would "fix" some of the pilot shortage. It's pitched in this particular article as a fix for the regionals. A reduction from 750 hours to 500 hours is neato and all, but a) you're not really adding that many to the pool and b) almost no mil pilots are willing or able to go work at the regionals for $40k/year to build time. The industry isn't getting to them any younger/earlier in their lives because they are contracted for the same amount of time as the guys that come out with 1500. Their career track and timing netted them fewer hours for one reason or another, but they still have a 6 figure life. They get their MBAs and be successful somewhere else. The ones who do come out with 1500 hours and appropriate recency don't go to the regionals.

Once it gets bad enough that the majors will take a restricted ATP you'll see much more interest. Still won't fix the regionals shortage problem though.

I suppose this could be a small win for Mil Helicopter guys that are trying to build fixed wing time. Their contracts are shorter by a few years, and that's about how much fixed wing time they can get as instructor pilots.
 
Last edited:
adk said:
Methinks this is all about setting a precedent for chipping away hour requirements. "Well we lowered mil requirements and still can't get enough pilots, how about dropping civilian time requirements?"
Click to expand...

A foot in the door, if you will...
 
adk said:
Methinks this is all about setting a precedent for chipping away hour requirements. "Well we lowered mil requirements and still can't get enough pilots, how about dropping civilian time requirements?"
Click to expand...
Me thinks you're right
 
We should all stand firm against any further watering of current airline hiring minimums. Heck, raise the minimums back up to 1500 for everyone! Call or write to your congressman.
 
Meh, the problem with taking a stand is that everyone here knows the rules are stupid, arbitrary, and don't produce better quality pilots, yet we want to 'stand firm' against a short term game to kill the regional pilot supply in our own self interests.

MPL is coming, and 1500 hours is ushering it right along.
 
I'm training FOs right now whose flight time vary between 500-1500 hours from a variety of backgrounds. Some CFIs, some not.

There is a tremendous difference between a kid with 600hrs or a kid with 1500hrs regardless of how they got there. What I've found is the sub-1500hr pilots haven't ever scared themselves in an airplane.
 
Leer-n-pilot said:
I'm training FOs right now whose flight time vary between 500-1500 hours from a variety of backgrounds. Some CFIs, some not.

There is a tremendous difference between a kid with 600hrs or a kid with 1500hrs regardless of how they got there. What I've found is the sub-1500hr pilots haven't ever scared themselves in an airplane.
Click to expand...

Agreed by and large. I understand that there are 1500 hour pilots that still can't fly very well for whatever reason, but on the whole...I believe that having the 1500 hours gives pilots a much broader well of experience from which they can draw once they are able to apply for that first airline job.
 
Flyinthrew said:
b) almost no mil pilots are willing or able to go work at the regionals for $40k/year to build time. The industry isn't getting to them any younger/earlier in their lives because they are contracted for the same amount of time as the guys that come out with 1500.
Click to expand...

Remember, there are a whole bunch of "Guard babies" -- guys who have been through military undergraduate and advanced follow-on training, as well as a couple-year seasoning period effectively flying the line in the military, but are part-timers in ANG or Reserve units -- who are looking for professional flying jobs and don't yet reach the bar for the R-ATP yet. The very much *do* want to go work at the regionals, and currently can't.

These aren't just knuckleheads off the street. They've all ready proven themselves in more than one highly selective and challenging training program, as well as flown big/complex iron in a multitude of crapholes around the world. They'll do just fine in a regional cockpit -- at least as well as the 1500 hour CFIs whose most complex aircraft flown has been a Dutchess.

We're not talking about a huge pool of people, but they are definitely out there and looking to get into the 121 game.
 
Hacker15e said:
Remember, there are a whole bunch of "Guard babies" -- guys who have been through military undergraduate and advanced follow-on training, as well as a couple-year seasoning period effectively flying the line in the military, but are part-timers in ANG or Reserve units -- who are looking for professional flying jobs and don't yet reach the bar for the R-ATP yet. The very much *do* want to go work at the regionals, and currently can't.

These aren't just knuckleheads off the street. They've all ready proven themselves in more than one highly selective and challenging training program, as well as flown big/complex iron in a multitude of crapholes around the world. They'll do just fine in a regional cockpit -- at least as well as the 1500 hour CFIs whose most complex aircraft flown has been a Dutchess.

We're not talking about a huge pool of people, but they are definitely out there and looking to get into the 121 game.
Click to expand...
There has to be a line in the sand and I feel the 1500hr mark is a reasonable one, it might not be the best but it is at least quantifiable.

Some of the weekend warriors who make it through UPT and on are still lead nosed just like their civilian counterparts. It's, again, not many but it does happen which reinforces the need to prevent a sliding scale.
 
Leer-n-pilot said:
There has to be a line in the sand and I feel the 1500hr mark is a reasonable one, it might not be the best but it is at least quantifiable.

Some of the weekend warriors who make it through UPT and on are still lead nosed just like their civilian counterparts. It's, again, not many but it does happen which reinforces the need to prevent a sliding scale.
Click to expand...

There's all ready a line in the sand, and it isn't 1500 hours: it is 750 for military trained guys....sooooo.....
 
I'm gonna catch a lot of crap for this but after working at the regionals with guys from various backrounds, I'll take a fairly new out of training lower time ex-CFI F/O over an ex-mil guy any day. I just was never that impressed with their flying and CRM skills. YMMV.

I'm sure some are really good but the same can be said for a civ guy too.

The exception was the ex-helo guys, those were always great, but apparently airlines in general don't count helo time which is so ridiculous.
 
wheelsup said:
I'm gonna catch a lot of crap for this but after working at the regionals with guys from various backrounds, I'll take a fairly new out of training lower time ex-CFI F/O over an ex-mil guy any day. I just was never that impressed with their flying and CRM skills. YMMV.

I'm sure some are really good but the same can be said for a civ guy too.

The exception was the ex-helo guys, those were always great, but apparently airlines in general don't count helo time which is so ridiculous.
Click to expand...

image.gif
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top