Advice Sought: IR ticket, 141 or 61?

killbilly

Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
Folks,

Was recently re-tallying my logbook totals to determine where I stood for eligibility on starting the IR, and was disappointed to realize that I'm 22 hours short on >50nm XC PIC time.

So I've been thinking about doing a 141 program for the IR as opposed to doing a 61 program. I'm not sure I want to or should do this, though. Any advantages to doing the IR 141 beyond the cost savings?
 

minitour

New Member
How much instrument time (hood) do you have?

141 - You'll spend 35 hours in an airplane with an instructor. Plus another 30 on the ground with an instructor. Minimum. Required.

61 - You need 50 XC PIC and 40 instrument.

If you need 22 XC PIC, you can go with an instructor and do XC flights while doing instrument stuff (BAIC and procedures too). Assuming that's all you need and you'll have the 50 & 40 (and the IFR xc) it would be much more cost effective to do your instrument rating 61.

If you need 40 instrument, take your 22 xc PIC with the instructor (or a safety pilot even) and get 22 hours of XC "IFR" PIC. Now you need 18 hours of instrument, of which 15 must be with a CFII.

So do the last 18 with an instructor.

Spend some time on the ground with him/her.

Finish up.

If it were me, I'd do it part 61. I think you can do it faster and more cost effectively if you're willing to do some work on your own. If you need an instructor to push you, do it part 141.

-mini
 

killbilly

Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
How much instrument time (hood) do you have?
I've just got around 3.5-4.0 of hood time as the minimum time required for the PPL.

141 - You'll spend 35 hours in an airplane with an instructor. Plus another 30 on the ground with an instructor. Minimum. Required.

61 - You need 50 XC PIC and 40 instrument.
Ahhh...I didn't realize this. Wasn't seeing the forest for the trees, so to speak.

If you need 22 XC PIC, you can go with an instructor and do XC flights while doing instrument stuff (BAIC and procedures too). Assuming that's all you need and you'll have the 50 & 40 (and the IFR xc) it would be much more cost effective to do your instrument rating 61.
I think I understand what you're saying here. I thought I had to have all the XC time done BEFORE I started training or took the written. But you're telling me that I can build that time in conjunction with the instructor? The other part I'm not getting - I need the 40 instrument to start training, or I need the 40 instrument to take the checkride?

If you need 40 instrument, take your 22 xc PIC with the instructor (or a safety pilot even) and get 22 hours of XC "IFR" PIC. Now you need 18 hours of instrument, of which 15 must be with a CFII.
Okay, I'm slightly confused here. If I'm doing hood work, don't I have to have an IFR-certificated pilot in the right seat, or a CFII?

I'm not a stupid person, but I'm feeling pretty dumb over my confusion here.
 

minitour

New Member
I think I understand what you're saying here. I thought I had to have all the XC time done BEFORE I started training or took the written. But you're telling me that I can build that time in conjunction with the instructor? The other part I'm not getting - I need the 40 instrument to start training, or I need the 40 instrument to take the checkride?
Those are the requirements to take the practical test. You can do all 50 xc PIC with a CFII while working on your instrument rating if you want.

50 xc PIC
40 instrument
15 of which has to be with a CFII
1 IFR xc flight with the instructor
Written
Private Pilot Certificate


Okay, I'm slightly confused here. If I'm doing hood work, don't I have to have an IFR-certificated pilot in the right seat, or a CFII?

I'm not a stupid person, but I'm feeling pretty dumb over my confusion here.
Don't worry. Getting started it can be very confusing. Once you've recommended several instrument students you start to memorize it. Then you stop instructing and you forget stuff, so you ask the questions again.

There's nothing wrong with asking the questions.

If you're under the hood you just need a safety pilot. If you know another private pilot, he/she can sit in the right seat, you can be under the hood flying and you can actually both log the time as PIC. You as sole manipulator of the flight controls and him/her as the PIC of the aircraft and a required crewmember (because you're under the hood).

Have fun with it.

-mini
 

killbilly

Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
If you're under the hood you just need a safety pilot. If you know another private pilot, he/she can sit in the right seat, you can be under the hood flying and you can actually both log the time as PIC. You as sole manipulator of the flight controls and him/her as the PIC of the aircraft and a required crewmember (because you're under the hood).

Have fun with it.

-mini
Ahhhh....and the light goes on. :)

So I can log the remaining 22 XC, under the hood, with another pilot sitting in the right seat (which I didn't want to do, but cash is king here) and then I can get the balance of the requirements with a CFII and complete all the required training criteria...

Which ALSO means that I could get a chunk of that XC time WITH the CFII and basically meet the XC requirements, the instrument requirements AND the training requirements on some of the same flights, right? Assuming I can perform to PTS standards within the minimum requirements.
 

minitour

New Member
Ahhhh....and the light goes on. :)

So I can log the remaining 22 XC, under the hood, with another pilot sitting in the right seat (which I didn't want to do, but cash is king here) and then I can get the balance of the requirements with a CFII and complete all the required training criteria...

Which ALSO means that I could get a chunk of that XC time WITH the CFII and basically meet the XC requirements, the instrument requirements AND the training requirements on some of the same flights, right? Assuming I can perform to PTS standards within the minimum requirements.
Bingo.

Find someone else working on their instrument rating and offer to safety pilot for them a little and split the bill.

First thing I'd do is take some lessons working on the BAIC stuff. Don't develop any bad habits that your -II will have to un-and re-teach.

-mini
 

MikeFavinger

Hubschrauber Flieger
Which ALSO means that I could get a chunk of that XC time WITH the CFII and basically meet the XC requirements, the instrument requirements AND the training requirements on some of the same flights, right? Assuming I can perform to PTS standards within the minimum requirements.
I used to do exactly that with my instrument students. I'd teach them the basics of instrument flight/ approaches/ holds, etc, locally, and then I'd help them build their XC, Inst XC, Inst time, and training time by going on XCs with them and shooting various approaches, holds, etc along the way.
 

minitour

New Member
I used to do exactly that with my instrument students. I'd teach them the basics of instrument flight/ approaches/ holds, etc, locally, and then I'd help them build their XC, Inst XC, Inst time, and training time by going on XCs with them and shooting various approaches, holds, etc along the way.
IMO, it's the best way.

Simulate ATC and just at random "hold ____ EFC ____". or "Report ____".

Helps them learn situational awareness.

-mini
 

killbilly

Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
Bingo.

Find someone else working on their instrument rating and offer to safety pilot for them a little and split the bill.

First thing I'd do is take some lessons working on the BAIC stuff. Don't develop any bad habits that your -II will have to un-and re-teach.

-mini
I used to do exactly that with my instrument students. I'd teach them the basics of instrument flight/ approaches/ holds, etc, locally, and then I'd help them build their XC, Inst XC, Inst time, and training time by going on XCs with them and shooting various approaches, holds, etc along the way.
Okay, this all makes sense.

I think doing some time with a safety pilot and some time with the CFI - but ALL on XC flights, makes sense. I think the key is being able to check as many boxes as possible on the requirements as I progress.

Fully understand the BAIC recommendation - I actually enjoyed that part of my PPL more than anything else, and I felt like I did very well with that. At least, my CFI said so.

I'll have to crunch all the numbers and see what's what. I'm watching the Sporty's IFR videos right now and the volume 2 on instrument approaches is killing me. Not because the material is difficult, but because drones on about this and that and I have to work extra hard to pay attention. I've found that taking notes helps.

Final Question for Now:

Let's say I set up one of these flights with a safety pilot. Obviously, we won't be on an IFR flight plan, so we'll depart VFR to go...somewhere...on the XC flight. At what point is it wise to don the foggles? And take them off? Do I advise ATC that it's an instrument training flight? What's the right way to do that?

Thanks again, for all the advice. I appreciate it.
 

minitour

New Member
I'll have to crunch all the numbers and see what's what. I'm watching the Sporty's IFR videos right now and the volume 2 on instrument approaches is killing me. Not because the material is difficult, but because drones on about this and that and I have to work extra hard to pay attention. I've found that taking notes helps.
You should try the King Videos. You're ready for your written or checkride when Martha starts to look hot(ter).

Final Question for Now:

Let's say I set up one of these flights with a safety pilot. Obviously, we won't be on an IFR flight plan, so we'll depart VFR to go...somewhere...on the XC flight. At what point is it wise to don the foggles? And take them off? Do I advise ATC that it's an instrument training flight? What's the right way to do that?

Thanks again, for all the advice. I appreciate it.
When you feel comfortable with it.

I had students using the flip down style foggles, so at random points I'd reach over and flip 'em down. Sometimes I'd wait until about 1000' and as they progressed, I'd do it right after they pull the nose up. Those always got fun.

-mini
 

XLR99

Well-Known Member
+1 for pt 61, much more flexibility.
I do exactly what Ian was talking about with my IR students after the basics- 3-4leg flight with a few long and a few short legs (depends on how fast the airplane is, maybe 45-60min for long legs). We'll file IFR a few legs, do a few VFR where we do maneuvers, emergencies, diversions etc enroute, stop for a debrief/lunch, then do another leg or two. You can go long enough to get high up for actual enroute IMC or fly to someplace that has IFR conditions and get a great deal of experience in the system while going places, which is why you get an IR.
It does take more time per lesson, figure 6hrs on the clock and 4 on the airplane, but I think it makes a better IFR pilot than shooting 5 serial approaches for 1.5 then going home.
 

killbilly

Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
You should try the King Videos. You're ready for your written or checkride when Martha starts to look hot(ter).


When you feel comfortable with it.

I had students using the flip down style foggles, so at random points I'd reach over and flip 'em down. Sometimes I'd wait until about 1000' and as they progressed, I'd do it right after they pull the nose up. Those always got fun.

-mini
When you're flying with the foggles and using a safety pilot, do you need to file an IFR flight plan or advise ATC that you're doing an IFR training flight?

For XC, do you fly along airways in the system or just kinda "fake it" as a VFR flight?
 

MikeFavinger

Hubschrauber Flieger
When you're flying with the foggles and using a safety pilot, do you need to file an IFR flight plan or advise ATC that you're doing an IFR training flight?
Not at all. Just fly it as a VFR and if you like, ask for practice approaches/ holds.

Besides, unless your safety pilot is Instrument rated, you can't file IFR. ;)

For XC, do you fly along airways in the system or just kinda "fake it" as a VFR flight?
You can fly airways or VOR to VOR or direct - doesn't matter a bit.
 

Hubbs

Well-Known Member
When you're flying with the foggles and using a safety pilot, do you need to file an IFR flight plan or advise ATC that you're doing an IFR training flight?

For XC, do you fly along airways in the system or just kinda "fake it" as a VFR flight?
It is good practice to occasionally file IFR (either with a instrument rated safety pilot or with your -II) as you will be able to get good experience of STARS and SIDS and dealing with the IFR system. However, there is absolutely no requirements to file, fly airways, or inform ATC though you do need to request approaches. You could make up your own SIDs eg give yourself a clearance to intercept a radial to a 'fix' and then a hold and then fly onwards.

Also, if I were you, I'd definitely do it pt61. It'll work out a lot cheaper for the number of hours you get, and you can also rent cheaper planes from non-pt141 outfits.

On a side not, if you are ever back in Dallas and need a safety pilot, let me know. I'm currently working on my instructor tickets and have a fairly flexible schedule.

Chris
 

Firebird2XC

Well-Known Member
Folks,

Was recently re-tallying my logbook totals to determine where I stood for eligibility on starting the IR, and was disappointed to realize that I'm 22 hours short on >50nm XC PIC time.

So I've been thinking about doing a 141 program for the IR as opposed to doing a 61 program. I'm not sure I want to or should do this, though. Any advantages to doing the IR 141 beyond the cost savings?

Don´t assume cost savings with a 141 program. As a VA student, I looked at several 141 vs 61 situations. Net result? 141 programs are syllabus based and often have more ground school time required to be logged, etc. It can be very rigid. Run all the actual numbers out like an accountant and look at it.

One 141 program, even with 60% VA reimbursement... had a 40% out of pocket cost that was still GREATER than 100% of a part 61 scenario.

The lower time totals only look like a bargain. Do the math. If 141 were faster AND cheaper.. nobody would be doing part 61.
 

Sheblerep

New Member
Once again, I post that I have a biased opinion. Come down here to Sheble's. We don't misquote people the way other flight schools do just to 'get them in the door.'

The first day, you would sit down with an instructor and determine exactly what you need and the best way to approach it. We try to do everything down here in the minimum time necessary to get you on a checkride with our examiners. Our full instrument course is $4,500.00 and lasts 10 days. Since you need a couple extra hours of X-C PIC time. The only thing the course cost doesn't cover is the written test (Our CATS facility hasn't been approved quite yet) and the examiner fee of $400.00.

I wouldn't advertise it unless I believe in it. Most the instructors here at Sheble's are former students, including myself.
 
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