Advice... removing PIC time from logbook

[gomntwins]

Just curious as to some thoughts on removing PIC time from my logbook. While going through training I did as most do, I logged all time when rated in the aircraft as PIC. Now, I've been having a debate with myself about putting in an entry to subtract that time. I'm in a position to be applying for the next step-- hopefully a fractional, major, national, etc-- and I'm not sure if I want to include the PIC time in my apps/resume where I wasn't truly the final authority on the flight. I'm fly single pilot 135 so PIC time is not an issue. Any thoughts? It would seem to me that at this stage, where there are no more ratings (I have my ATP) and I have thousands of hours of PIC, a company would be more concerned with knowing the PIC where the pilot is the final authority than the combo of dual recieved and PIC.

 

[tonyw]

Why would you remove time that the FAA says you are entitled to record as PIC time?

I don't understand it. All of my dual received while training for the instrument rating is going down as PIC time because the FAA says I can. And so I'm going to do it.

 

[germb747]

Don't go subtracting time from your logbook if it was logged legally in accordance with FAR 61. Here's what you might do--start an electronic logbook and create an additional column (or if you don't want to, you could even create another column in your paper logbook), where you keep track of the "PIC PART 1" aka "final authority" time separately. This way you can easily extract the time the airlines are interested in without having to go back an doctor up your logbook. An electronic logbook is nice because each airline wants wants to know different times from your flying history and you can easily sort it without having to take out a calculator and rack your brain and make mistakes. The time I put on my resumes as "PIC time" was time I took out of that new column.

This difference in what the FAA considers PIC time and what the airlines consider PIC time was seriously frustrating to me when I started looking for a job. PIC time ought to mean just that, time where you were the "Pilot in Command". Unfortunately, the FAA doesn't see it that way and it just creates more headache for all of us who are trying to keep our times straight.

 

[gomntwins]

Why would you remove time that the FAA says you are entitled to record as PIC time?

I don't understand it. All of my dual received while training for the instrument rating is going down as PIC time because the FAA says I can. And so I'm going to do it.

It has mostly to do with the Netjets application where they do not want PIC and dual in the same column on their application. Spirit airlines is the same.

 

[falconvalley]

It just means they don't want to include it. You don't have to delete it, my friend. Just don't use it with them if they don't wanna count it.

 

[gomntwins]

It just means they don't want to include it. You don't have to delete it, my friend. Just don't use it with them if they don't wanna count it.

Is this something others have explained in an interview... why does your resume not match your logbook? I'm just trying to do it the most professional way possible.

Germb... thanks. I might give that a shot. I don't have an electronic logbook, probably should. Gonna stay with paper for now. I would have to add a column throughout the last couple years. Does that seem the best idea? Or just start a new column halfway through a logbook?

 

[nosehair]

I have thousands of hours of PIC

Then you have no need to be concerned about a few hundred that were not truely PIC.

The problem comes up when the low-timer with 500 hours logged PIC and most of the logged PIC is not true 'acting as' PIC - then it becomes an issue.

 

[germb747]

Is this something others have explained in an interview... why does your resume not match your logbook? I'm just trying to do it the most professional way possible.

I wasn't personally asked about it; they should expect to see that you've maintained your logbook in accordance with FARs, and that it's not necessarily the same way they want your time disclosed. If they see that the PIC time on your resume/application is LESS than the PIC time in your logbook, they ought to be able to put 2 and 2 together. But if not, you have your explanation.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

61.51 makes it very clear. If they only want to accept their version of PIC time, that is their problem, not yours. Just extract out what they want and feed it to them.

 

[falconvalley]

Is this something others have explained in an interview... why does your resume not match your logbook? I'm just trying to do it the most professional way possible.

Germb... thanks. I might give that a shot. I don't have an electronic logbook, probably should. Gonna stay with paper for now. I would have to add a column throughout the last couple years. Does that seem the best idea? Or just start a new column halfway through a logbook?

I have seen this before and think that it sends the wrong message to pilots. The suggestions of electronic logs are excellent and adding a column is also good. There are people out there that truely believe that total time cannot be the result of overlapping and that probably started with companies asking for final authority PIC and turned into a misconception on the interviewer side of the table. As long as you respect their wishes and show what you got and make it easy to decifer, you will get good results 99% of the time. I just don't think pilots should be deleting and omitting legitimate experience because there are a few interviewers out there that are confused and close-minded.

 

[germb747]

Germb... thanks. I might give that a shot. I don't have an electronic logbook, probably should. Gonna stay with paper for now. I would have to add a column throughout the last couple years. Does that seem the best idea? Or just start a new column halfway through a logbook?

I'd use the new column to record all the PIC time in which you were ACTING PIC from your first solo on. BTW, this is TECHNIQUE ONLY and certainly isn't required. I do it but not sure how many others do it--I just think it makes it easier to fill out your apps.

 

[tonyw]

61.51 makes it very clear. If they only want to accept their version of PIC time, that is their problem, not yours. Just extract out what they want and feed it to them.

:yeahthat:

I wouldn't go and remove anything that I am legally entitled to claim.

 

[NightCargo]

I'm assuming that since you have the application for Netjets that you have already submitted your resume. What times did your resume reflect, your logbook numbers or the corrected ones? If you sent them the corrected numbers, then I would do what falconvalley said and during an interview (IF THEY ASK) have your explanation ready for them.

Definately don't remove it from your logbook. If I was interviewing, and saw a large correction like that, it would probably make me dig a little further into your logbooks to see if any other "corrections" were made.

When I interviewed at Netjets almost 3 years ago, they never even OPENED my logbook. Not once. Things may have changed since then though . . .

Good Luck

 

[gomntwins]

I'm assuming that since you have the application for Netjets that you have already submitted your resume. What times did your resume reflect, your logbook numbers or the corrected ones? If you sent them the corrected numbers, then I would do what falconvalley said and during an interview (IF THEY ASK) have your explanation ready for them.

Definately don't remove it from your logbook. If I was interviewing, and saw a large correction like that, it would probably make me dig a little further into your logbooks to see if any other "corrections" were made.

When I interviewed at Netjets almost 3 years ago, they never even OPENED my logbook. Not once. Things may have changed since then though . . .

Good Luck

A few things have changed... they don't send you the application after submitting your resume anymore. You download it from their website, available to everybody, and submit via mail. That changed just a couple months ago. On their application they do have it spelled out how they want it, and it's PIC minus all time when you were with an instructor. So, PIC time is only time when acting as PIC to them. Which is fine, I've got plenty. I just didn't know if they would question why my PIC time on the app differs to my logbook. I think I'll just give them, and companies in the future I send resumes to, only my 'acting as PIC' total and explain in an interview why it differs.

On a side note... I've been breaking apart my logbook the last couple days-- time in different types of airplanes, what kind of time that is (simulated in AMEL, actual in ASEL, Dual given in a 172, etc.,etc.,etc.).... what a nightmare. To anybody getting started that wants to do this professionally... I highly recommend breaking apart your time as you go. Some companies want more than just ASEL, AMEL, Instrument-- some want type of time in each and every aircraft you've ever flown. Do it as you go... I've been working on this for a lot of hours now. Not fun.

 

[gomntwins]

I guess I do have another question now... what should I put on a resume? Total PIC time or acting as PIC time? I had my mind made up for a bit... now I don't. For a regional I'd put total... that seems to be the norm. How about for a major?

I'm probably making this way too complicated but I really don't want to start an interview explaining my way through my logbooks.

 

[tonyw]

I guess I do have another question now... what should I put on a resume? Total PIC time or acting as PIC time? I had my mind made up for a bit... now I don't. For a regional I'd put total... that seems to be the norm. How about for a major?

I'm probably making this way too complicated but I really don't want to start an interview explaining my way through my logbooks.

You're overthinking this.

The question is how much PIC time you have, correct? Put down what the FAA says you are entitled to and if someone has different criteria, handle that in the cover letter.