Advice for getting a pilot slot in the ANG/Reserves

[UAShopeful]

Ok, First of all, I know this topic/question gets asked hundreds of times and that there is a wealth of info on this topic scattered from here to all ends of the internet. I am currently putting in the many hours to look up all that info, but I figured it couldn't hurt to just throw it out there, in case anyone out there has some really good insight that they would graciously feel like dropping on me here. I'm just going to be up front with everything here, so as to not waste time beating around the bush on anything. I know you guys probably odn't like addressing this stuff on an individual basis, but if there's one thing I've learned in the last 5+ years, it's that asking can be a powerful tool.

So here's the deal:

I'm recently 26 yrs old and have finally deciding that daydreaming about flying in the military isn't going to cut it anymore. I want in. I have:
- B.S. degree from a well-known aviation university, 3.66 GPA
- A&P license, and PPL with 130+ hours (ASEL)
- 2.5 years job experience flying UAS overseas

I'm interested in flying just about anything, but would prefer something multiengine turbine, for career advancement purposes. I don't think I'm going to apply to many fighter units because of my age (I hear that above 23, they are far less likely to take you) and because of competition. I might apply to A-10 units (because.... well... you can't NOT apply for an A-10), but generally, I was mostly going to go after C-130, C-17, KC-135 slots, because you can't really go wrong with a heavy, multi-engine platform.

Anyway, I have a whole slew of questions, some general, some that more relate to me personally, that I'd love answers to if anyone is willing to share their own knowledge that might give me some guidance, tips, or motivation. I won't ask everything right off the bat, but will get to them after seeing the level of interest you fine folk have in helping someone like me out. However, a few of my questions are as follows:

1. So obviously, I know the next step is to take the AFOQT and TBAS. I have looked into this and the local testing site administrator told me that I could not take them without "being sponsored by a unit to take it" or something along those lines. Basically, he was saying that I can't just make an appointment to take the AFOQT on my own without having something lined up with a unit to receive my scores. Does anyone know anything about this? Do I have to talk to a recruiter first to be able to set a testing appointment?

2. I would love love love advice on the social aspects of building rapport with a unit. Obviously, I understand the concepts of networking and rubbing elbows the right way and "just generally being a cool guy so the unit likes you". My concerns are that I understand that you need to "rush/call units" (should I read this as "bombard"?) and try to go to the drill weeks and get to know the unit if at all possible. How can I do this without appearing to be 'the guy who is showing up because he thinks it's going to help him get a slot'? I deploy a lot for work, and so going to these types of events can be difficult, as many of you know, so how can I show a unit that I'm interested and am willing to make the effort, even if I can't be there physically?

3. Kind of related to #2, but what is the best process; should I set up a packet, drop it at a unit, and then start trying to build rapport, or should I take the time ahead of time to start contacting a unit, getting to know them, visiting, and THEN drop a packet? The second option seems best, but how does one go about establishing some sort of relationship with the boardmembers/unit/etc without actively being in the process of submitting a packet? I feel like you would just seem to be the "random civilian that keeps trying to get on base and talking to people while we're all trying to do work".

4. I don't want to talk too much about my work/job, but from what I stated, some of you should have a good idea of what that means in terms of my work experience, interactions with the military, and hopefully would provide a boardmember an idea of my ability to make it in the military. So, based on my work, do you think that might help to give me an edge over the competition? Assuming I get decent AFOQT/TBAS scores, and assuming the rest of my resume, how competitive might someone like me be?

I'm sorry this was so long, but I'm trying to reach out to every avenue for advice/help. If you know of any JC users that would be totally cool with taking PM's from a desperate sap like me, please point me in their direction. I have tons more questions to ask, if you are patient enough to listen to them.

Thanks for reading and helping. You guys are great.

 

[SLEDGE HAMMER]

I'll try to answer your questions as best I can, but do so from the side of having been an applicant. I'm not sure where you heard that above 23 fighter units won't take you simply isn't true. From my experience at the meet & greets and interviews I attended, I would say most of the applicants were 25 - 28. I was 28.5 last fall when I was hired, and that's the age when it really gets much more difficult to get any unit to talk to you simply because after you're hired, it's still a long process to get to UPT, which you have to start before your 30th birthday. Every unit has it's own idea of what they're looking for (eg high time, prior service, high scores etc) and even then, I've found the rumors about certain units and what they want in a candidate to typically be false. Don't self-select by not applying, even if you don't meet a certain requirement try anyway as you never know. Additionally, apply to every airframe you think you could stand to fly in every location you think you could stand to live, and try not to fall into the trap of having a "dream" unit.

As you already know you need to take the AFOQT/TBAS ASAP. Try local ROTC dets or Guard units for the AFOQT. You don't need a sponsor to take it. If one place tells you to get lost, try another. Eventually someone will help you out but it may take some traveling to make it happen. Same goes with the TBAS for testing. I would probably try an AFRC officer ascensions recruiter last but they are an option. Be sure to study and be prepared, you can only take each one twice and scores, while not everything, are definitely important.

As for rushing a unit, it really depends. Some units are really big on you getting to know them, and them getting to know you, and other units strictly forbid it. Some units will hold a more official meet and greet/social type event and others will just let you come on a random drill weekend. If the hiring announcement doesn't say, give the POC a shout and see what they prefer. If you do rush a unit, everyone will know what you're there for so don't worry about "showing up for a slot." Just don't be a •.

Most units post hiring announcements on their websites for UPT boards, and they'll have a list of things they want sent to them, and again it varies by unit. Additionally, hiring announcements may be posted other places (like guardreservejobs.com).

I can't really speak to how competitive you are since I haven't sat on a board. Once you have your AFOQT/PCSM scores, you'll have a better idea of where you stand.

Take care and good luck.

 

[KappaSigmaPilot]

I responded to your PM a couple hours ago with some general info but I'll try my best to give you my oppinion on your specific questions here.
1) As long as nothing has changed that is not necessarily true. Especially when rushing guard units you won't be "sponsored" to take the tests prior to their hiring board. I would try to call back and explain what you are attempting to do again, letting him know you do not have a recruiter or sponsoring unit yet and see if you can't figure something out.
If that fails you could always try to get in touch with your nearest AFROTC detachment as I know some will allow civilians to come in and test when they are administering the tests to cadets.
2) As for rushing the units I wouldn't say bombard them but if it is a unit you're interested in call and ask for their ops desk and let them know you're interested in the unit and wanted to see if they had info on their next UPT board. Most that I've dealt with have been really cool and will give you all of the information they have. It seems like units are hit and miss on the visits over drill weekends. I've applied to several that don't want any visitors prior to the board and others that give brownie points for showing up and having a couple beers with the guys.
3) I would work on getting your name and interest out there before sending them a package. Most units ask for the same information but it seems like no two want that information in the same order. If you call and explain your situation they will most likely put you in touch with the POC for the next board who will then keep you in the loop on the exact details for their upcoming board.
4) I think it is a great time to get in and with your GPA and flight experience I don't see any reason why you couldn't get hired somewhere. Persistence is key. Most people I know that are in the guard or reserve have interviewed several times in order to find the unit that was a fit for both parties. Another suggestion I might add is to try to get in touch with a local officer recruiter for the AF Reserve. This past November I know they were sending guys though unsponsored and basically after getting the thumbs up from AFRC the candidate was a lot more marketable to units as they'd already been selected and given the OK to go to UPT.
Any other questions feel free to ask. This is a great group with a lot of insight.

 

[Dan208B]

Hey a few thoughts... My wife just got hired at a C17 unit so I'm fairly familiar with what's up. Talk to one of the units close to where you live and they'll set you up with a recruiter. It's CRITICAL to find a good recruiter that's associated with a unit because lots of recruiters have no clue what's up. Then the recruiter will get you set up for the AFOQT/TBAS. You'll also need to go to MEPS for a medical. Fighter vs heavies... apply where you want to be. 26 is not too old for fighters but get on it. Rushing a squadron depends on the individual squadron. Try to get a feel for them but keep in mind different units look for different things. I can tell you to STUDY STUDY STUDY for the AFOQT because those scores are very important. Then if it's a unit you can rush, do that. They would prefer to hire a known quantity. But again, every unit is different so if you can talk to people and get an idea of whether they want you around all the time or just want to meet you once that would be helpful. You'll have to put some effort into these steps, the websites for individual squadrons may not be very helpful for contact info. Also technically the recruiter you are working with will submit your application package. Be certain to get it reviewed by people that know what they're looking at and check carefully for spelling errors and such, that's a good way to get it thrown out. You also really need to pay attention to when units will accept packets. Some accept year round, others have a month long window like once a year. So you can't just go apply everywhere. If you want some more insight feel free to PM me. It's a complicated process and I hope it works out for you. Again, if you want to do this, get on it tomorrow!

 

[UAShopeful]

Thanks for the information, everyone. I truly appreciate all of the help and encouragement. I've been studying for the AFOQT for a little bit now as the next step, so I feel a little better about the process. I will definitely get in touch with some of you a little down the road when I have some scores. I'm out of the country currently so unfortunately I won't be able to talk/ meet with any units just yet, but it'll give me a little bit of time to prep for the test and figure out some timeline stuff.

Please keep the information coming, if you think of anything else. Thank you, all.

 

[KappaSigmaPilot]

Thanks for the information, everyone. I truly appreciate all of the help and encouragement. I've been studying for the AFOQT for a little bit now as the next step, so I feel a little better about the process. I will definitely get in touch with some of you a little down the road when I have some scores. I'm out of the country currently so unfortunately I won't be able to talk/ meet with any units just yet, but it'll give me a little bit of time to prep for the test and figure out some timeline stuff.

Please keep the information coming, if you think of anything else. Thank you, all.

It can't hurt to go ahead and reach out to units you may be interested in now. The whole process can take a long time so knowing when application deadlines are, or when the next board is planned can be great information to help you get your ducks in a row when you get back stateside.

 

[Soku39]

First off depending on your career and advancement goals later down the road. I might advise against the C-130. I love flying C-130s, I love our mission, and I love what we do. That said any and all of my C-17 and KC-135 bros have surpassed me in their military careers and in their eventual civilian careers. In my squadron a local C-130 sortie is about a 2.5. C-17s and KC-135 locals are many times longer than this. Their missions are longer, Strat airlift = lots of long haul airline style droning. So for that reason I am a very junior 0-3 and am still one to two years away from my AC upgrade. Many of my friends in the same year group and junior have already completed AC school for the C-17. Now I would argue there is a lot less going on in a C-17 strat mission than a C-130 tac mission, and I would argue that there is far more to know to operate a C-130 safely, but we still get hours at a much slower pace than the strat guys. Also formation and airdrop is in a C-130 pilot's blood. Form and airdrop in the C-17 world is apparently a huge deal, and like 15% of guys are quald in it. Also C-17 and KC-135 "deployments" are much shorter than what we do in the C-130. That said you take the UPT slot when it comes.

As far as rushing units, every squadron is different. Oddly enough the units that I hung out with and rushed all gave me interviews, but none hired me. Two of the units that I just cold called and sent packages to ended up giving me job offers, so go figure. I know absolutely nothing about ANG fighter units or what they're looking for. Good luck if you go down that path.

As for the AFOQT and TBAS, try contacting an ROTC det directly, this is what I did at the local state university and I was able to take it without recruiter or unit sponsorship.

You seem like you would be a good candidate, again as everyone else mentioned PM for any further questions.

@Dan208B Didn't know your wife got the nod, congrats to her, you guys are in for quite a ride over the next 3 years.

 

[UAShopeful]

Thanks for that bit of info. If nothing else, the C-130 is my last choice of those three, simply for the ability to build turbine time in the others.

 

[kaudbron]

Thanks for that bit of info. If nothing else, the C-130 is my last choice of those three, simply for the ability to build turbine time in the others.

If logging Flight Time is your main goal you might want to reconsider your motivations (not saying it is, but something to consider).... Budget constraints could happen at anytime and now you are flying once a quarter, stuck with a long service commitment.
Also, if your intent is to fly airliners eventually I would look for an airframe that is furthest from an Airland mission set, but thats my opinion. It helps put up with the bs of the job when you get to go serve your country doing something completely different then hub and spoke airliner style.
I agree with what was said above about Herc hours, you are between fighters and Strat on sortie duration, with my avg a 2.1. Longest of over 9 hours but thats not as often in Hercs.
Also, unit staffing plays a factor. If there is a plus of copilots you will get less sticktime vs a few you will be flying your butt off.
Make sure you are speaking with an Officer recruiter when scheduling tests,etc. they will know the ptocess better. Hit me up with anything else.

 

[///AMG]

Just to throw another data point out there, completely concur that in terms of TT, fighter guys are at a disadvantage in terms of raw numbers. I personally think sortie totals count for something tangible as well (just from a pure quality and experience of aviator standpoint), but that is neither here nor there, as I don't believe the airlines care about that anyway. However, in the fighter community, while a 20 year guy might leave with only 2,500-3,000 hours TT these days, 95% or more of those will be PIC. Not an airline guy, so I don't know how much that bit matters, but I know on paper it is a difference between us and the heavy guys who (in some cases) work up from 3P to 2P and finally to AC during their initial years in the aircraft. That said, the actual flying and cockpit mentality couldn't be further from that of a crewed heavy GW transport category aircraft. Everything from the procedures, to checklists, to troubleshooting and ease of operation are vastly different. There are like 5 checklist items required to get any of the jets I fly safely airborne (at least once everything is turned on and working properly post start) and the same could be said for landing checks. They are simple because there is only one person to do everything. Almost all of the more serious emergencies I've had were handled by simply getting the gear down, dumping gas to an acceptable gross weight for landing, and then getting on deck as soon as possible after running through any applicable boldface stuff. I don't think that mantra or general mentality is either feasible, prudent, or possible in a lot of more complex airline type aircraft. Hacker could of course much more intelligently explain the differences than I could, as he has seen both sides, but that is my best guess having never flown for the airlines.

 

[UAShopeful]

So I haven't decided yet whether the airline route is for me, but I haven't ruled it out. However, I do realize that trying to get any crew-based flight position down the road can be hindered if you're coming from a fighter jet, because you're trained under that single-pilot mentality. That's the other reason why I'm kind of skeptical on going Fighter. On one hand, you have this awesome, advanced fighter jet that fulfills every dream you've had for flying jets but provides low flight time and a lack of CRM training, while on the other hand, you can fly cargo aircraft that have the potential to groom you for most piloting jobs out there, and give you some more flight time. I see kaudbron's point about diversifying your experience so that you don't burn out, albeit at a cost of less sortie time. This is kind of why I'm not sure what I want to fly. But obviously, if you get offered a slot, you have to take it regardless of what it is, so maybe that will ultimately be the deciding factor.

I guess all in all, I'll take either and make the best of whatever I get. If I could land a fighter spot, I'd try to fly as often as I can, and then take a CRM course at a university if I feel like I want to go airlines eventually. If I can get heavy lift, I'll try to fly as often as I can and see what other job options are out there besides airlines if I'm bored with that type of mission. And in either case, if I don't fly as often as I want, I feel like ANG is still a good gig, despite being committed . Jobs are hard to come by these days and don't pay enough to climb out of that student debt hole fast enough that having a side-gig in the ANG would still help financially, on my resume, and personal experience-wise. I have a great job right now, and I'm STILL looking for a second job. There's no way I'm ever going to afford the rest of my ratings on my own anyway so I feel like this is my one shot at reaching that life goal. As long as they'll let me fly, that's pretty much good to go in my book.

I appreciate the input, everyone. It helps a lot seeing everyone's perspective. As I get closer to returning home and being able to really get the process rolling, I may PM some of you for some more info. In the meantime, I continue to welcome any and all input, not just with the application process but also with some perspective on each of those airframe routes from those of you that live them.

 

[Soku39]

Dude, don't worry about it. Delta hired like all the dudes from one particular F-15 squadron last year, No matter what you fly, you'll be fine.

There is definitely CRM in single seat ops, you'll be part of a formation, and you still deal with TACPs, the tanker, and other players.

 

[///AMG]

Yes, concur, CRM isn't just a multi-piloted thing. In fact, I am required to sit through formal "CRM training" each and every year. The methods are maybe different, but the idea is the same.

 

[Hacker15e]

Just to throw another data point out there, completely concur that in terms of TT, fighter guys are at a disadvantage in terms of raw numbers.

Every airline recognizes the inherent differences in sortie duration (and thus differences in hours accumulated vs years active) between fighters/trainers and tanker/transport/etc.

Pointy-nosed pilots with less hours are going to be looked at on a pretty level playing field with their heavy counterparts with more hours.

@UAShopeful, don't worry that having a fighter background is going to hurt chances of a later airline career, because ultimately there is no difference in hiring between the two sectors.

 

[Hacker15e]

There are like 5 checklist items required to get any of the jets I fly safely airborne (at least once everything is turned on and working properly post start) and the same could be said for landing checks. They are simple because there is only one person to do everything. Almost all of the more serious emergencies I've had were handled by simply getting the gear down, dumping gas to an acceptable gross weight for landing, and then getting on deck as soon as possible after running through any applicable boldface stuff. I don't think that mantra or general mentality is either feasible, prudent, or possible in a lot of more complex airline type aircraft.

There are some folks who claim that fighter background guys have a tough time adapting to the heavily-checklist-oriented procedural flying at the airlines, but nobody that I know has had this issue.

If it were true, there would be some evidence that the airlines hire fewer fighter guys (and if it were actually a serious problem, that's what they'd do). But, they continue to hire just as many fighter dudes as guys from other backgrounds, just as they have for decades before.

 

[Hacker15e]

So I haven't decided yet whether the airline route is for me, but I haven't ruled it out. However, I do realize that trying to get any crew-based flight position down the road can be hindered if you're coming from a fighter jet, because you're trained under that single-pilot mentality.

Sorry, but two false assumptions here.

No, getting a "crew-based flight position" won't be "hindered" if you're a fighter guy. No, it isn't more difficult because of being trained and having experience in the single-pilot world. For some reason, civilian-trained guys like to perpetuate this, but as @///AMG and @Soku39 mentioned, the exact same CRM techniques and skills that single-seat guys learn and use to work as a team with pilots in other cockpits translate very well to working with pilots in the same cockpit.

Again, if this were actually an issue, airlines wouldn't hire (or wouldn't hire as many) fighter dudes. But, they do.

 

[UAShopeful]

Ok, thanks for that tidbit. I hear that a lot but I guess that's just some urban myth that people like to pass around because they don't know any better. And from an anecdotal point of view, I guess I should have realized that as well since anyone who I've ever met who was a retired fighter pilot was also in the airlines at some point.

 

[JPilot9]

First off depending on your career and advancement goals later down the road. I might advise against the C-130. I love flying C-130s, I love our mission, and I love what we do. That said any and all of my C-17 and KC-135 bros have surpassed me in their military careers and in their eventual civilian careers. In my squadron a local C-130 sortie is about a 2.5. C-17s and KC-135 locals are many times longer than this. Their missions are longer, Strat airlift = lots of long haul airline style droning. So for that reason I am a very junior 0-3 and am still one to two years away from my AC upgrade. Many of my friends in the same year group and junior have already completed AC school for the C-17. Now I would argue there is a lot less going on in a C-17 strat mission than a C-130 tac mission, and I would argue that there is far more to know to operate a C-130 safely, but we still get hours at a much slower pace than the strat guys. Also formation and airdrop is in a C-130 pilot's blood. Form and airdrop in the C-17 world is apparently a huge deal, and like 15% of guys are quald in it. Also C-17 and KC-135 "deployments" are much shorter than what we do in the C-130. That said you take the UPT slot when it comes.ntacting an ROTC det directly, this is what I did at the local state university and I was able to take it without recruiter or unit sponsorship.

@Dan208B Didn't know your wife got the nod, congrats to her, you guys are in for quite a ride over the next 3 years.

Anyone with airline aspirations rushing a C-130 guard unit in hopes of getting to an airline quickly would be very wise to read this over and over and over and over.

 

[UAShopeful]

Hi everyone,
I know it's been a while, but I've been busy... Anyway, I just got my scores back so I just wanted to gauge what you guys thought...

My AFOQT scores were Pilot-99, Nav-99, Academics-96, Verbal-98, Quant-86.
My PCSM score is 98.

I understand that these scores are good enough to at least start applying, so I'm going to go back and reread everything you guys said and try to plan my next step. I'm worried about trying to get a board interview because I travel overseas a lot for work so it will be a matter of planning those out early enough in advance, which I hear that most boards alert you a month in advance? Anyone have any info on how early you might know of a pending board interview?

Other than that, if anyone else has any advice on the next step, I'm open to hearing anything and everything you folks have to offer, even if it's stuff you're sure I would've heard by now. I'm going to tidy up my resume, start downloading packet guides from each unit, and get on trying to get some LORs next.

If any of you know anyone in any of the units in the PA, NJ, MD, DE areas, tell them to expect my application

 

[kaudbron]

Nice work, you knocked that out of the park! It shows you are serious about getting a UPT position.

Yes, you should be submitting packages yesterday! There two ways to go now, the shotgun method or the targeted approach. It's up to you which method you choose but I would target specific units in the MidAtlantic that interest you. You are too late for my Sq board but we will have one next year I am sure.
Start pinging Pilot recruiters now, and get on a first name basis. This region is great in that there is alot of airframes to choose from. I know you said you travel alot but also its time for squadron visits, you need to interview them just as much as they will you. Good luck