Advantages to Union Representation

maybe a little of topic but look at UPS second year increases.

Second year FO pay in
2008: $112/hr
2009: $122/hr
2010: $132/hr
2011: $143/hr
2012: $149/hr


That second year fo pay is just about as good as most legacy capt pay. Hopefully some of the majors can use UPS and FedEx as examples when they negotiate there new contracts. I know American is going to negotiations and they want there pre 9/11 pay back.

Adam
 
Dugie8 said:
A wide body FO makes about 54K first year, not something to brag about considering the requirements to get hired at FedEx. You can argue that 2nd year and up pay makes up for it, but that is, to me, an "ends justifying the means" mentality.
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Pay is the same for all seats, so a 727 s/o makes that as well.

In any event, it is about double what any of the others are doing. The requirements are not much different than UPS or SWA, so not sure where you're going there. Sorry you had a bad experience so this is a hot issue for you. I recall being aware of 1st year pay at the majors when I first started pursuing flying as a career, just part of the way the industry has always worked, like probation.
 
Make no mistake, I am not faulting anyone for where they are or how they got there, I simply think the way payscales are done and how top heavy it is simply is, for lack of a better word, wrong.

As I see it, if it is ok to pay crappy first year wages "just beacuse that is how it is" then it is ok for anyone to take any path to get to UPS, FedEx, LLC, Legacies, etc without being harped on by others. The sooner one can get to making 100+ bucks and hour the better, so if that means an initial up front investment of 70K+ to someplace like Gulfstream or JetU to get going in this industry faster then to me that is a smart investment (assuming actually going to those places gets you anywhere faster).

"Just the way it is" simply doesn't cut it for me, change is good.
 
DE727UPS said:
Dugie, first year pay sucks everywhere. That's the way it is and the way it's always been. Doubt it's ever gonna change. As a union, we could have changed that on our last contract, but we didn't. Couldn't get enough votes for it. It's something we all lived with and expect those coming on to live with. It's your probationary year. There is a price to pay.

Feel free to stick with the regional job if moving up seems unfair to you. Nobody is gonna notice, either way. And, yeah, the "ends do justify the means". That's what I think. If you wanna know what I make at a 18 year UPS Capt, check out APC.
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I only see up to year 15 does it keep going up after that?
 
Seggy said:
Bottom line is union representation is A LOT better than no representation.
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Correct. It's like this. A titty twister really hurts. But if the choice is a titty twister or a kick in the nads, you have to go for the titty twister. Airline management is like a kick in the nads. That is a scientific fact.

(Note, the foregoing relationship applies primarily to men who are not into S&M. The relationship for women may be reversed. I will conduct further study and report back. :crazy: )

MF
 
PCL_128 said:
What's up Seggy? Started upgrade yet?

Training's going great, but I miss my platinum ALPA pin already. :)
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HA! I saw the user name and had to make sure I wasn't on FlightInfo. :) Welcome aboard, man. I'm sure ATL is MUCH better than DTW.
 
"maybe a little of topic but look at UPS second year increases.

Second year FO pay in
2008: $112/hr
2009: $122/hr
2010: $132/hr
2011: $143/hr
2012: $149/hr"

Totally makes my point. My pilot group sacrificed to get this scale for F/O's, while Capts got much less, percentage wise. Yet, I hear we are "showing are true colors" but not getting first year pay raised. I think we showed are true colors by getting the F/O rates up at a greater percentage than Capt rates.
 
Ya know, I really don't have that much of a problem with realtively (key word, there) low first year FO pay. GASP! Did he really say that? Yeah, and here's why. You're still on probation. You're still feeling the company out and vice versa. It's not good financial sense to pay someone this huge amount if they may or may not stick around for a whole year. Now, there's a difference b/w getting $19/hr first year and $25/hr first year. $21/hr, IMO should be the absolute MINIMUM a first year FO at a 121 carrier should be making, if THAT low. The real kicker is the trend over the next couple of years. Getting a minor raise after you're off probation, however, isn't acceptable. You've determined by that point that you're gonna stick it out, and the company has decided that you're competent enough that they're not gonna just kick you to the curb. To me, that equates to more than a $4/hr raise. We're talking about twice that, IMO. That's why so many of our guys are jumping ship to start over at the bottom of another seniority list at another airline. The thing is, they're making about as much on first year pay somewhere else as they would be making second year here! Add in the probably better contract and QOL, and it's a win-win for them, ESPECIALLY if it's an easier commute.

I've said it lots of times, and it bears repeating. If I didn't live in base, I probably would be with either CHQ or XJT right now instead of PCL.
 
The professor of my labor/management relations class said it best: "Any company that has a union on the property is getting exactly what it deserves." I would love to work for a non-union company. A unionized company is a failure. It is a failure of management to recognize that they cannot simply ignore employee needs. It is a failure of labor to recognize that they cannot simply make demands regardless of the marketplace.

There is enought blame to go around. Airline employees have unrealistic expectations of their employer. Airline management make unreasonable demands of their employees.

I don't know what the solution is. I'm not even sure there is a problem. The only problem I have been able to detect is with people's expectations.
 
Why shouldn't professionals (of any industry) have some sort of expectations? Some sort of expectations of what they should be making annually, and over their lifetime in the career.

Would you leave it up to a third party official to determine your professional worth? Or, would you allow an agency, that works on your behalf, to build and defend your professional worth.

Expectations are what improve work conditions, pay, and other benefits. I don't see them as a problem.
 
skydog said:
The professor of my labor/management relations class said it best: "Any company that has a union on the property is getting exactly what it deserves."
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:yeahthat:

If you don't shaft your employees, they're not going to be looking to take something out of their paycheck for someone to stand up for them against management.

If you treat your employees well, they won't form a union. Look at the Fortune top companies to work for and tell me what percentage of them are unionized.
 
Exactly. The heyday of unionizing was before all the employment laws existed. So workers needed a union to protect them from overtime without compensation, discrimination in the workplace, etc. Today, polls of employees who join unions show that the predominant reason is because, "My employer doesn't care about me." So, I train my managers to approach their staff daily and let them know that they care about them; to ask how they are doing; and to ask if there is anything they can do for them; and then to respond to their needs. It works wonders--we're in health care and have no unions.
 
surreal1221 said:
Would you leave it up to a third party official to determine your professional worth? Or, would you allow an agency, that works on your behalf, to build and defend your professional worth.
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A third party determines what it thinks you're worth when they offer you a job, though. You determine whether or not you agree by accepting the offer. Not being a pilot, I cannot speak to this perspective from the pilot's view, but that is generally, roughly, how it works in the non-flying sectors.
 
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