Accused of "Stealing" Another CFI's Student

adk

adk

Steals Hotel Toilet Paper
A friend of mine was doing some freelance instruction with a guy who just bought a 172. One day I went out and said hi to the two of them. About a day or two after the guy found out I was a CFI he called me and asked me to take over his flight training. We've gone up about five times now.

The problem is that my buddy is pretty angry with me. He says I stole his student. I pointed out that the guy came and found me, not the other way around. I didn't even give him a business card and I'm still not sure how he got my phone number. I'm pretty new at the instructing game, so this is my first time going through a situation like this. My friend is acting like I'm dating his ex wife or something. Did I break some unwritten CFI code by flying with his student?
 
I'd sit down with him over a coffee or a beer or something. If he's your friend, I'd choose the friendship over the student.
 
It sounds like you did everything fine.

The only thing I might have done differently would be talking to your friend before flying with the guy the first time, just to make sure he's in the loop and understands you had no intention of "stealing" anything.

Remember, no instructor "owns" a student. Students are always customers with the free choice to fly with whomever they please. Any instructor who can't adjust to this reality shouldn't be teaching...especially as a freelance instructor.
 
Doug Taylor said:
I'd sit down with him over a coffee or a beer or something. If he's your friend, I'd choose the friendship over the student.
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It is a small world and let alone industry.... Regardless of what you think, it appears your friend things differently. It is probably time to make that right regardless of the student.
 
If you called the student, I'd say that was "stealing" the student. If the student called you, it was the student's choice.

I used to be a Realtor® and this kind of thing happenes all the time. State regulations specifically prohibit an agent from contacting another agent's client- however if another agent's client initiates the contact and states a desire to switch agents, that's perfectly legitimate.

Another side of this is that the Realtor's® Code of Ethics makes it clear that nobody has a "right" to anybody's business- period. That means even if you have a relative or long time client- or even a current client, if they choose to hire somebody else, that's their call, and being pissed at the other Realtor® is unethical on your part. And believe me, Realtors® are, as a group, WAY more possessive, selfish, and childish than CFI's could hope to be
 
I see two sides of this.
As someone pointed out instructors do not "own" students, or as I tell students when we first meet the training is not about me, it is about the student.
On the flip side I have seen some underhanded stuff by some instructors (one local one in particular). This one guy in particular is between jobs. He has approached a few of my students while I was not around, offered to fly with them, and made a point of mentioning that he charges less than I do. I especially find this annoying as he only wants to CFI for currency and for some cash; as soon as he can line up another flying job (if he can), he will be gone and the students will be left high and dry.
Still, it is the students choice.
 
I don't think you stole the student and it apparently wasn't working out with the other CFI. However, I do think you broke an unwritten rule. What would have been better is to question the student about why he wants to switch. Then say that you would have to check with your buddy to see if its cool with him. Your buddy should have, at the very least known, that you were flying with him.

Even at a contract flight school where management wants us to fly with other CFI's assigned students we still abide by this unwritten rule. I would explain the situation, apologize for not letting him know or for giving him the option, by him a beer, tell him you'll stop flying with the student if he wants, and that it won't happen again. Don't let it worry you too much though.:beer:
 
Blackhawk said:
This one guy in particular is between jobs. He has approached a few of my students while I was not around, offered to fly with them, and made a point of mentioning that he charges less than I do. I especially find this annoying as he only wants to CFI for currency and for some cash; as soon as he can line up another flying job (if he can), he will be gone and the students will be left high and dry.
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I understand the "you're stealing my livelihood" aspect, but I also see the "you weren't giving the customer what he wanted" side of things. The student came looking for me, so while I can only imagine how much your situation must blow, I don't think it really parallels this one. I keep trying to rationalize things by telling myself that if he was so quick to jump ship he must have been thinking about a new instructor for a while, but pissing off a guy I've known for years doesn't really justify 30 hours of instructing.


Lead said:
I would explain the situation, apologize for not letting him know or for giving him the option, by him a beer, tell him you'll stop flying with the student if he wants, and that it won't happen again. Don't let it worry you too much though.:beer:
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Thats what I was thinking I would do. What stinks is that if I stop flying with the student he's not going to go back to my friend either. I realize that I could have handled things better and the last thing I want to do is burn any bridges.


To change the situation up a little, what if the student came to me from an instructor I don't know? What about another instructor at the same airport? I'm trying to understand if this is more of an issue between friends or between professionals.
 
Mike H said:
...the Realtor's® Code ..... other Realtor® is... Realtors® are....
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Just out of curiosity why did you copyright "Realtor"? :dunno:


And I agree with the others... you didnt steal him but should of talked to your buddy first when the student called you to discuss things.
 
adk said:
A friend of mine was doing some freelance instruction with a guy who just bought a 172. One day I went out and said hi to the two of them. About a day or two after the guy found out I was a CFI he called me and asked me to take over his flight training. We've gone up about five times now.

The problem is that my buddy is pretty angry with me. He says I stole his student. I pointed out that the guy came and found me, not the other way around. I didn't even give him a business card and I'm still not sure how he got my phone number. I'm pretty new at the instructing game, so this is my first time going through a situation like this. My friend is acting like I'm dating his ex wife or something. Did I break some unwritten CFI code by flying with his student?
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Thief.

I hope you're happy.






:sarcasm:
 
There is no stealing. It's the student's money and the student's choice. I can see an argument that you might pursue the student and encourage them to ditch your buddy and fly with you, which might be a bit of a dirty hustle, but that doesn't seem to have happened. Maybe you could have talked to your friend first, but only to say the same thing you're saying now.
 
jrh said:
It sounds like you did everything fine.

The only thing I might have done differently would be talking to your friend before flying with the guy the first time, just to make sure he's in the loop and understands you had no intention of "stealing" anything.

Remember, no instructor "owns" a student. Students are always customers with the free choice to fly with whomever they please. Any instructor who can't adjust to this reality shouldn't be teaching...especially as a freelance instructor.
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:yeahthat:

All I would of done differently was tell your friend/other instructor that you got a call from his student saying he wanted to try another instructor. Then just tell your friend that his student asked to fly with you. I mean if I was your friend I wouldn't be disappointed because that is the way the CFI world works. For example at the place I'm working one guy went through 5 instructors until he found the right guy. This happened because the CFI's were just like fly the airplane and liked talking, but the student just wanted numbers and time and didn't want talking while he was concentrating. So eventually this student said shut up to his CFI and well so the next in line CFI got him until they found the right one.:rawk:
 
adk said:
A friend of mine was doing some freelance instruction with a guy who just bought a 172. One day I went out and said hi to the two of them. About a day or two after the guy found out I was a CFI he called me and asked me to take over his flight training. We've gone up about five times now.

The problem is that my buddy is pretty angry with me. He says I stole his student. I pointed out that the guy came and found me, not the other way around. I didn't even give him a business card and I'm still not sure how he got my phone number. I'm pretty new at the instructing game, so this is my first time going through a situation like this. My friend is acting like I'm dating his ex wife or something. Did I break some unwritten CFI code by flying with his student?
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I found that it is pretty easy to steal a student from someone else. All you gotta do wait till they are frustrated (every student gets frustrated) then give them a pep talk and one flight and teach them something new (like pressurization or turbines or something really important that a primary should know about) and they instantly think your the better instructor even though your not.

Thats why I wont even fly even once with students from other instructors unless:
1 The other Instructor agrees
2 The student is unhappy with his current Instructor and wants to change Instructor (Usually with permission from his other Instructor as well)


I think its unprofessional to fly with other Instructors students in hopes to get them to your side.
I wont fly with them because

1 I don't like seeing flight Instructors undercut each other.
2 I have enough students that I really don't even have time to take on more.
3 I like to have students from the start because taking them from another Instructor it seems like I spend more time fixing their bad habits (like rudder usage or pitch attitudes instead of chasing airspeed needles) I'm a big fan of "Primacy", it really works.
 
Something to add - make the student tell his previous CFI that he wants to change; BEFORE you talk to the original CFI, and before you fly with him.
Kind of cowardly of the student to just call another CFI to start instructing without even giving any notice to the original CFI - that call should be coming from the student, not from the new CFI.
 
XLR99 said:
Something to add - make the student tell his previous CFI that he wants to change; BEFORE you talk to the original CFI, and before you fly with him.
Kind of cowardly of the student to just call another CFI to start instructing without even giving any notice to the original CFI - that call should be coming from the student, not from the new CFI.
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Oh I definitely agree with that I would of definitely have asked the other instructor if he was okay with that. I hope any of my students would have enough respect to tell me they want another instructor rather than not telling me .
 
XLR99 said:
Something to add - make the student tell his previous CFI that he wants to change; BEFORE you talk to the original CFI, and before you fly with him.
Kind of cowardly of the student to just call another CFI to start instructing without even giving any notice to the original CFI - that call should be coming from the student, not from the new CFI.
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I disagree. If I decide to change barbers, my new barber won't make me to go tell my old barber that I want a change before I get a haircut...unless I'm on a Seinfeld episode.

The student is the customer and he shouldn't have to deal with all the dynamics of hiring a new teacher. When I first meet a student I tell them that hiring a CFI should be an interview process, and that process may involve a number of flights to determine if they can learn the way I teach. If they can't, then they should seek out another teacher who fits their style of learning. I offer to help with that transition, but in 6 yrs I've never had a student take me up on it. I also tell them they can just ask the chief pilot for a new CFI and that I won't take it personally because I’m a professional instructor and want what’s best for them.

I'm a for-hire teacher offering a service to a customer. If he doesn't like my service for whatever reason, then he should look elsewhere. He doesn't need to inform his old CFI before doing so. If anyone should communicate with the old CFI, it's the new CFI. If the old CFI was serious about customer satisfaction, he would be pleased that he found a teacher who is a better fit. After all, why is the old CFI so upset? Is he really upset because he thinks this guy could learn better from him, or because this particular customer is no longer paying him?

Keeping the customer's desires and goals in sight will stop most of this kind of petty squabbling. But, that would require a degree of professionalism…
 
Nihon_Ni said:
I disagree. If I decide to change barbers, my new barber won't make me to go tell my old barber that I want a change before I get a haircut...unless I'm on a Seinfeld episode.

The student is the customer and he shouldn't have to deal with all the dynamics of hiring a new teacher. When I first meet a student I tell them that hiring a CFI should be an interview process, and that process may involve a number of flights to determine if they can learn the way I teach. If they can't, then they should seek out another teacher who fits their style of learning. I offer to help with that transition, but in 6 yrs I've never had a student take me up on it. I also tell them they can just ask the chief pilot for a new CFI and that I won't take it personally because I’m a professional instructor and want what’s best for them.

I'm a for-hire teacher offering a service to a customer. If he doesn't like my service for whatever reason, then he should look elsewhere. He doesn't need to inform his old CFI before doing so. If anyone should communicate with the old CFI, it's the new CFI. If the old CFI was serious about customer satisfaction, he would be pleased that he found a teacher who is a better fit. After all, why is the old CFI so upset? Is he really upset because he thinks this guy could learn better from him, or because this particular customer is no longer paying him?

Keeping the customer's desires and goals in sight will stop most of this kind of petty squabbling. But, that would require a degree of professionalism…
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:yeahthat:

Couldn't have said it better myself.
 
jrh said:
:yeahthat:

Couldn't have said it better myself.
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With any student I have I tell them the on the first day, "If you want to fly with another instructor for whatever reason, go right ahead". Then I find the instructor and......:eek:.........Give him background on his new student. I don't have enough friends in my life to afford one more enemy. As of today, zero students have left me for another instructor. I wish I could say that about women.
 
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