Aborted Take-Off

NJA_Capt said:
I don't think they are that dangerous either. One thing that is dangerous is a go around from low altitude with full flaps. In some aircraft it is VERY easy to get into trouble.


NJA_Capt when you talk about a go around from low altitude with full flaps being dangerous, what exactly do you mean by getting into trouble ? I'm not questioning anything, just curious as to what could be dangerous about the maneuver.....thanks !!
 
IndianaPilot said:
NJA_Capt when you talk about a go around from low altitude with full flaps being dangerous, what exactly do you mean by getting into trouble ? I'm not questioning anything, just curious as to what could be dangerous about the maneuver.....thanks !!

I can tell you from experience that a heavilly loaded, but legally loaded 172 on a high density day is a real chore to go-around safely. Since I am a big guy, I have to carefully plan when a go-around is safe and when it is not. Waiting until the last second to do a go-around at a short field with very tall trees at both ends is a no-no for me. Just something to think about when you fly a plane at gross weight, at a short field, with a high density altitude.

And yes, part of my careful planning is to go early, or much later in the day when go-arounds like those above need to be taught.

I think each student should experience flying their plane at a legal gross weight to see how the airplane behaves differently then when it is lightly loaded.
 
Great debate guys...

As an instructor at a 2000 foot runway (KANP), I teach aborted takeoffs to primarys. On the takeoff roll, if a situation arises that makes it unsafe to continue the takeoff, the fence at the end of the runway gets real big real fast. Therefore, we teach students to remove power, apply brakes, and bring up the flaps(always do short fields at KANP).

For touch and go's, we teach them from the beginning. However, before the solo they are more of getting real slow, reconfigure, and then takeoff (obviously not at the home airport w/ 2000 ft). Touch and Go's are NOT allowed on solo flight. And then after soloing, the training touch and go's are a little quicker since the student is a better multitasker.

Obviously safety is most important, but i believe they can safely be taught and performed given a healthy respect...

-Kevin
 
IndianaPilot said:
NJA_Capt when you talk about a go around from low altitude with full flaps being dangerous, what exactly do you mean by getting into trouble ? I'm not questioning anything, just curious as to what could be dangerous about the maneuver.....thanks !!

I think maybe in a Heavy there talking about not raising flaps in sequence causeing a fast sink rate before you have reached full power... in a 172 low approach with full flaps is not an issue for overshooting providing theres obstruction clearence...
 
I've got a good example as to why we should teach aborted takeoffs. Post-solo student, getting ready for takeoff. Everything's normal, until we start the takeoff roll.......student says something about the airspeed not looking right, we have a brief (as brief as can be, during the takeoff roll) discussion about it seeming low, and instead of aborting, the student decides to try to haul the airplane into the air..........up we go, while drifting left off the runway cause he's really not at rotation speed and struggling to get it flying. I let him get the plane under control, and we made a trip around the pattern, with a no-airspeed indicator landing. Great experience for him to make a landing with no airspeed indicator, but never should've happened in the first place. Also a good chance to discuss the need for a pretakeoff briefing that includes "we're not going flying unless everything's just right". Funny thing is, we'd done a couple aborted takeoffs during his earlier training.......apparently not enough, however, to really ingrain the proper reaction in his thinking. So I would argue, if even a couple aborted takeoffs aren't enough to teach the student to instinctively react, we should be doing them even more often, and unexpectedly.

Oh, and the airspeed indicator..........had a spider in the pitot tube, blocked it enough to give a lower than normal reading.
 
I actually believe in teaching aborts now, but I have to disagree with the example you gave here...

TaterSalad said:
instead of aborting, the student decides to try to haul the airplane into the air..........up we go, while drifting left off the runway cause he's really not at rotation speed and struggling to get it flying.

The big problem I see with this situation is that the student tried to haul the plane into the air before it was ready to fly, not that they decided not to abort. Two things worry me about that: 1) the student doesn't have a good "feel" for the plane without using the instruments and 2) they're distracted to the point of almost losing control. Those issues are far more critical than the abort/continue decision.

I can understand students doing a double-take when the airspeed isn't coming up, but frankly, it should be a non-issue as far as safety is concerned. As part of my pre-solo students' training I cover the entire panel, then we fly around and do ground reference maneuvers and touch and goes. It helps them understand that the plane will fly no problem and they can stay in control based on nothing but feel. There's also the issue of handling realistic distractions. For my students, that usually includes windows popping open on the takeoff roll or on short final ;)

Earlier in this thread I mentioned that students need to be taught to prioritize. The airspeed indicator isn't needed for 95% of flying. Maybe it's needed for the precise execution of a maneuver, but it's not a "safety of flight" type of deal.

This was a good learning experience for the student no doubt, but I would have stressed a different lesson--fly the plane, then deal with the problem. That may or may not include aborting the takeoff, depending on the circumstances. How fast are you already going? How much runway is left? Will the problem keep you from getting in the air? Those are questions to think about with this sort of scenario.

The reason I'm saying all this is because I disagree with the idea that "we're aborting if anything isn't right." I'd hate to see somebody run off the end of a 1500 foot strip because their airspeed indicator was inop and they decided to abort. In a case like that, you're better off to get in the air and sort out the problem later. Having a blanket rule of aborting for any little thing is almost as bad as being in the mindset of taking off no matter what.

FWIW, there are only two things that I'll abort a takeoff for. Any loss of control (sticky brake, tire blowing, engine failure in a twin, controls sticking, etc.) or any indication of a problem with the engine (loss of oil pressure, running rough, lack of power, funny smell, etc.). Those are the two types of things that can kill you if you keep going. Otherwise, you're probably better off dealing with the problem in the air.

TaterSalad said:
Funny thing is, we'd done a couple aborted takeoffs during his earlier training.......apparently not enough, however, to really ingrain the proper reaction in his thinking. So I would argue, if even a couple aborted takeoffs aren't enough to teach the student to instinctively react, we should be doing them even more often, and unexpectedly.

So true. I think every instructor has had students do things that they've been specifically trained not to do. I know I have, and it makes me cringe, but there's only so much you can do. No matter how good of an instructor you are and how much you drill something, students are going to screw up sometimes.

Something I've realized is that it's impossible to prepare the student for everything. That's why they call every license a license to learn. Only a desire to learn as much as they can and gaining hours of experience will keep them safe in the long run. You have to develop their habits, and more importantly, their judgement as best as you can and hope they do well on their own.
 
Mountain Flying said:
I think maybe in a Heavy there talking about not raising flaps in sequence causeing a fast sink rate before you have reached full power... in a 172 low approach with full flaps is not an issue for overshooting providing theres obstruction clearence...
In some loading configurations, it is not unusual to be trimmed at or near full nose up trim on short final. If you are at full nose up trim at low altitude and add full power to go around, it takes considerable forward stick pressure to maintain a "normal" climb attitude. If you are not ready for the force required the aircraft could quickly pitch up and stall.
 
jrh said:
The reason I'm saying all this is because I disagree with the idea that "we're aborting if anything isn't right." ...Having a blanket rule of aborting for any little thing is almost as bad as being in the mindset of taking off no matter what.
Our SOPs are blanket:Abort for any problem before 80kts.

jrh said:
FWIW, there are only two things that I'll abort a takeoff for. Any loss of control (sticky brake, tire blowing, engine failure in a twin, controls sticking, etc.) or any indication of a problem with the engine (loss of oil pressure, running rough, lack of power, funny smell, etc.).
80kts - V1
1. Any fire (engine or cabin)
2. Engine failure
3. Loss of directional control (see below)
4. Master warning illuminates

jrh said:
No matter how good of an instructor you are and how much you drill something, students are going to screw up sometimes.
It's not just students...

http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?id=CHI97MA017&rpt=fi
 
NJA_Capt said:
Our SOPs are blanket:Abort for any problem before 80kts.

So you would abort for a faulty airspeed indicator when you know you would go off the end of the runway?

NJA_Capt said:
80kts - V1
1. Any fire (engine or cabin)
2. Engine failure
3. Loss of directional control (see below)
4. Master warning illuminates

Sounds like I was taught an informal, small trainer version of what you do. I would group "engine fire or failure" into "any indication of a problem with the engine" and "loss of directional control" would be the same as "loss of control." As for a cabin fire or master warning, I don't think we have those in 152s ;)


NJA_Capt said:
It's not just students...

Ah, also so true. If I had a nickel for every time I caught myself screwing up, I'd be a rich man. But nobody likes to admit that about themselves. We'd all like to think we're the greatest pilot of all time.
 
jrh said:
As for a cabin fire or master warning, I don't think we have those in 152s ;)
Have you ever wondered about Cessna's logic when they put ashtrays in the 150-172s??????
Lemme get this straight. They thought it was OK to have a lit cigarette while sitting below two fuel tanks? Not to mention the fuel lines fun down the door post and under the floor to the firewall (and occasionally leak).
 
jrh said:
I actually believe in teaching aborts now, but I have to disagree with the example you gave here...



The big problem I see with this situation is that the student tried to haul the plane into the air before it was ready to fly, not that they decided not to abort. Two things worry me about that: 1) the student doesn't have a good "feel" for the plane without using the instruments and 2) they're distracted to the point of almost losing control. Those issues are far more critical than the abort/continue decision.

The reason I'm saying all this is because I disagree with the idea that "we're aborting if anything isn't right." I'd hate to see somebody run off the end of a 1500 foot strip because their airspeed indicator was inop and they decided to abort. In a case like that, you're better off to get in the air and sort out the problem later. Having a blanket rule of aborting for any little thing is almost as bad as being in the mindset of taking off no matter what.

I probably should have clarified further. The runway is 5500' long, and being a 172, we were maybe only 1000' down the runway at this point. Second, I don't teach it's a "one size fits all" response........we cover the fact that if it's a short runway, you prioritize and make a judgement call. I just meant, in this case, it should have been a no-brainer to abort the takeoff. You're right, no airspeed indicator is not something that can kill you........usually. But why take an airplane into the air, when something's not working right, and you've got plenty of runway to stop? My point was, because we apparently hadn't covered aborts enough, it wasn't even an option in his mind.

Along those lines (students having options in their head), here's another good one to ask students about..........ask them while you're taxiing what they'd do if the brakes failed. I have yet to have a single student say they'd pull the mixture. It's almost always "pull the throttle to idle" "taxi into the grass" and things along those lines. As we all know, if that engine is still running, it's still producing some forward motion, even at idle.
 
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