AAG to Transfer Envoy CRJ-700s to PSA

Cherokee_Cruiser said:
With Endeavor and Envoy pilots, both of whom will probably shut down by end of 2016.
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Not this one.

Guys, remember that we drew the line in the sand knowing it would most likely cost us our jobs. Some users felt like we had leverage, some were fearful, and most were emotional. But I don't think anybody who voted was stupid enough to believe that they weren't going to make an example of us. They told us what they were going to do.
 
J Cole said:
I understand the frustration, but I think this represents a misunderstanding of the situation. The only way to do this would be for national to create a set of standards for collective bargaining agreements which could supersede the will of the pilots. This would go against the very nature of a collective bargaining agreement - that unions and CBAs are fundamentally democratic systems, where the union allows the work group to "bargain collectively" with their management. MEC and LEC members are elected and pilots can vote for TAs. Any other system wouldn't really be a "collective bargaining" system, would it?
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I'm one of those pilots and my will is exactly that.

There should at least be a minimum standard for each kind of operation. At the very best a national seniority list.

I know I'm dreaming, but whatever we are doing isn't workimg.
 
I feel for the envoy guys taking the nut punch here. Like them I'll probably be out of a job soon. Weird industry. Best of luck to those who scramble out of this
 
Whats the end all here? AAG just wants to clean up shop and filter out the lifers? People put years of hard work and dedication just to have it wiped away. Next year this time, you'll have a fresh CFI at PSA who just upgraded in under a year, and his F/O will be a 10 YR ENY CA. Talk about a total cock-up
 
jynxyjoe said:
ALPA has nothing to do with where the planes get sent right? Just want to make sure. :rolleyes:
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It doesn't. But it doesn't help anybody when National's policy seems to be championing any contract that will ensure growth (even at crap payrates, work rules, and benefits), even at the expense of another company which they represent. There's no action without an equal and opposite reaction. In this scenario, if National encourages PDT or PSA to vote yes, there, naturally, will be a consequence at another airline.
 
MOONWOLF said:
Whats the end all here? AAG just wants to clean up shop and filter out the lifers? People put years of hard work and dedication just to have it wiped away. Next year this time, you'll have a fresh CFI at PSA who just upgraded in under a year, and his F/O will be a 10 YR ENY CA. Talk about a total cock-up
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Bottom line is some people just refuse to believe the truth about mergers. I got hate thrown my way on APC when I suggested one pilot base would shut down as a result of the AA-US merger. I don't know which one, whether it's PHX, CLT, PHL, ORD but when you consider the point of a merger is to consolidate operations and realize "synergies" then the point stands. With DL/NW it was MEM and arguably CVG (though still a small pilot base). With UniCal, it was CLE. But somehow AA/US are infallible to a base closure, all their cities are "perfect hubs." :rolleyes:

Anyway, the point here is that like hubs, regional airlines also will get consolidated down. There will be winners and losers. I don't know the exact amount of AA and US regionals operating today but it's probably 7-10 or so. In the end, there will probably be 4-5. The same thing happened with DL/NW when Pinnacle and Mesaba were forced together and Comair was eliminated. UniCal got rid of Colgan and is gutting XJT even today.
 
Derg said:
Tell me about the scope language in your contract again, @Cherokee_Cruiser? :)
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No contract (yet anyway). IMO, the licensing fee involved with the Virgin brand wouldn't be worth it for RJ flying. We are paying millions for the brand license fee. I suppose anything is possible but I don't see how regional feed works for an airline with only 53 planes. You need a much larger airline to make regional feed worth the while. We just turned the corner on profitability and I can't see how this business model - mostly transcons - will work for regional feed.

BE19Pilot said:
You need to read& understand ALPA's charter and by-laws to understand why this is impossible...
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Every contract is still signed by the ALPA Chair. You can always change rules and by-laws. This should be one of them. Instead, you have L Moak make a video about how regionals should take concessions. :rolleyes:

ALPA is a waste of time at the regional level.
 
Screaming_Emu said:
Yes and no.

Denying jumps eats and what not is childish and shouldn't be done. You don't know if the guy needing a ride was one of the no voters.

That said, this is a great example of how we absolutely need to stand as one. Until we do, we will continue to be abused.

PA shot the entire industry in the foot and they should be embarrassed.

The root of the problem however is weak leadership from national. Allowing one ALPA carrier to undercut another is absolutely unacceptable.
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A lot of folks are quick to blame ALPA National for what's happening at the regionals but IMO there's not much ALPA National can do. Regionals are drastically shrinking and there will be bloodshed of a few companies before its all said and done. Too many players, too few spots. ALPA can't save everyone.

On a very positive note, major airlines are hiring copious amounts of pilots. Its a crazy time in the regional industry. But market forces still tilt in the favor of the Regional pilots. You can network yourself into a spot at and LCC/Legacy, or if you desire to get PIC time and can stomach first year pay, jump over to several regionals with rapid upgrades.
 
Trip7 said:
A lot of folks are quick to blame ALPA National for what's happening at the regionals but IMO there's not much ALPA National can do. Regionals are drastically shrinking and there will be bloodshed of a few companies before its all said and done. Too many players, too few spots. ALPA can't save everyone.

On a very positive note, major airlines are hiring copious amounts of pilots. Its a crazy time in the regional industry. But market forces still tilt in the favor of the Regional pilots. You can network yourself into a spot at and LCC/Legacy, or if you desire to get PIC time and can stomach first year pay, jump over to several regionals with rapid upgrades.
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Is there really nothing that ALPA could do? In the interest of their pilots success they should be doing everything they can to find a way to keep this from happening. I certainly understand if they are powerless but where there is a will, there is a way. I wish I knew more about how these things work. If it could accomplish anything I'd like to see them lobbying to release the entire RJ industry to strike.

I must be off my rockers!
 
Screaming_Emu said:
but whatever we are doing isn't working.
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I just want to clarify something with this statement. It is not your fault or pilots at regional airlines (more on that below) but what ALPA is doing in terms of 'scope choke' is working VERY well. The scope portions at Delta and United (and American) are working and that correlates to the turmoil we are seeing at the regional airlines.

Trip7 said:
A lot of folks are quick to blame ALPA National for what's happening at the regionals but IMO there's not much ALPA National can do. Regionals are drastically shrinking and there will be bloodshed of a few companies before its all said and done. Too many players, too few spots. ALPA can't save everyone.
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This relates to the post above, but ALPA National has done a deplorable job of actually explaining to regional airline pilots and their elected leadership what the scope clauses of the mainline parters are. That would not have changed the situation individual regionals are in, but it would have added another element for the pilots to make their decisions based on the information provided. Furthermore, ALPA National hasn't done anything outside of the box or tangible to really help folks leave their respective regionals even though the polling data shows that over 70% of regional pilots at ALPA Carriers want to leave.

Thankfully, the UALMEC is thinking outside of the box to help their ALPA Brothers and Sisters and came up with a tangible answer with the Fee For Departure Open Houses. More airlines in ALPA should be doing the same thing to really help the 70%+ of ALPA Fee For Departure Pilots that want to leave.
 
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Cherokee_Cruiser said:
No contract (yet anyway). IMO, the licensing fee involved with the Virgin brand wouldn't be worth it for RJ flying. We are paying millions for the brand license fee. I suppose anything is possible but I don't see how regional feed works for an airline with only 53 planes. You need a much larger airline to make regional feed worth the while. We just turned the corner on profitability and I can't see how this business model - mostly transcons - will work for regional feed.



Every contract is still signed by the ALPA Chair. You can always change rules and by-laws. This should be one of them. Instead, you have L Moak make a video about how regionals should take concessions. :rolleyes:

ALPA is a waste of time at the regional level.
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He's saying Virgin could outsource those Airbus jobs without scope protection
 
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