AAG to Transfer Envoy CRJ-700s to PSA

Cherokee_Cruiser said:
And what happens when ARW is not chosen to receive any 70 seaters because their MEC does a fantastic job of turning down an offered substandard rate in order to hold the line?
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Once again you show you have no idea what is going on. Remember that there is a lot more to this then what appears on the surface. 10 years ago everyone thought AWAC was going out of business when United pulled the plug. The owners of AWAC are businessmen and they, unlike you, have no emotion when it comes to this issue.
 
OK, I gotta chime in here...again. AND, in spite of political and union philosophical differences with certain members here. We ALL flew for Colgan, and some of us in all three fleet types like myself. You aren't going to make a chicken-scratch comment like that about pilots that I shared the cockpit with. People that did a fine job, and I'd venture a better job than most too...We has a heinous accident, but show me an airline that hasn't...Roselawn, Little Rock, Narita, Lexington...and some damn near accidents, Charlie-west and Providence...EVERY one of those was a perfectly good airplane with crews that made a causal error...CC you continue to underwhelm me with your frankly stupid, ignorant and ill-informed comments. I'd venture that I probably have forgotten more about aviation that you have learned in your entire life, so go crawl back in your Mommy's basement, order Papa John's and see if you can think up some irrelevant response to my rant...
 
amorris311 said:
Why? What was your benchmark for making a statement like that? Tread lightly on this one considering your background. I would not compare your previous employer as an exemplary standard to aviation safety.
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9E's bad one was 3701. No pax were killed because it was a repo flight. A year before that, Colgan had a 1900 go down on a ferry flight as well. Although they weren't cowboys like 3701, they missed a key checklist item that would have alerted them to their trim/rig situation. And of course the BUF accident happened which ended up being an industry-changing crash with FAR 117, new ATP rules, etc. "Flying Cheap" also reinforced the idea that Colgan was a shady operation that would force pilots to go, go, go. Even before the BUF crash, I had heard enough stories about that place that were scary enough to form my opinion stated above.

Be19, the difference between your examples is that experience wasn't really a factor in the crashes you mentioned. And after those crashes there weren't any landmark changes to aviation laws/rules. Unfortunately, the BUF crash was so bad that the entire industry was forced to change. New ATP rules, new hiring minimums, and new rest rules. And of course, the public outcry against Colgan pretty much ensured that the name Colgan could no longer live on in an airline. The CA lied to get to where he was that night. Sorry, but the flying public deserves better. The BUF FO actually talked on the CVR of some FOs in her class who were complaining they hadn't upgraded yet! 6 months in! And that she wanted to go through at least one winter before upgrading - which shows good judgement. It's sad what happened, but there are no excuses for that CA. This crash is entirely different than the crashes at LEX, NRT, LIT. Since I often get the emotion card thrown my way, I'd like to toss it back and say that since you work there you will be emotional over this topic as well.
 
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Nice try at equivocation...try again...you still have no clue about what you are talking about, and demonstrate that you have no ability to think for yourself and draw your own conclusion(s). You just sit there and pass judgement based upon press reports, conjecture and talking points.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
9E's bad one was 3701. No pax were killed because it was a repo flight. A year before that, Colgan had a 1900 go down on a ferry flight as well. Although they weren't cowboys like 3701, they missed a key checklist item that would have alerted them to their trim/rig situation. And of course the BUF accident happened which ended up being an industry-changing crash with FAR 117, new ATP rules, etc. "Flying Cheap" also reinforced the idea that Colgan was a shady operation that would force pilots to go, go, go. Even before the BUF crash, I had heard enough stories about that place that were scary enough to form my opinion stated above.

Be19, the difference between your examples is that experience wasn't really a factor in the crashes you mentioned. And after those crashes there weren't any landmark changes to aviation laws/rules. Unfortunately, the BUF crash was so bad that the entire industry was forced to change. New ATP rules, new hiring minimums, and new rest rules. And of course, the public outcry against Colgan pretty much ensured that the name Colgan could no longer live on in an airline. The CA lied to get to where he was that night. Sorry, but the flying public deserves better. The BUF FO actually talked on the CVR of some FOs in her class who were complaining they hadn't upgraded yet! 6 months in! And that she wanted to go through at least one winter before upgrading - which shows good judgement. It's sad what happened, but there are no excuses for that CA. This crash is entirely different than the crashes at LEX, NRT, LIT. Since I often get the emotion card thrown my way, I'd like to toss it back and say that since you work there you will be emotional over this topic as well.
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You should have been a .......
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Be19, the difference between your examples is that experience wasn't really a factor in the crashes you mentioned.
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A) the BUF crash had less to do with lack of experience (on the part of the captain) and more to do with a lack of airmanship and B) experience certainly played a factor in some of the crashes listed above.

And after those crashes there weren't any landmark changes to aviation laws/rules. Unfortunately, the BUF crash was so bad that the entire industry was forced to change.
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There were pretty large changes made after some of the crashes listed. They didn't change the foundation of the industry, but that's mostly because they happened outside the realm of 24/7 social media coverage.

The BUF FO actually talked on the CVR of some FOs in her class who were complaining they hadn't upgraded yet! 6 months in!
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I seem to recall you complaining in a similar way on here at one point in time.
 
BobDDuck said:
A) the BUF crash had less to do with lack of experience (on the part of the captain) and more to do with a lack of airmanship and B) experience certainly played a factor in some of the crashes listed above.
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Experience and airmanship both for the Colgan case. As for the LIT, NRT, LEX, they were experienced crews (it certainly wasn't their first rodeo) and they had more than 3,000 hrs total in the left seat. I recommend seeing 'Flying Cheap' if you haven't already.


There were pretty large changes made after some of the crashes listed. They didn't change the foundation of the industry, but that's mostly because they happened outside the realm of 24/7 social media coverage.
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What changes came out of the NRT crash (I assume we are talking about Fedex)? Or the LEX crash, other than most companies having a runway heading and checked callout amongst PF/PM? The 9L crash was a landmark case for changes throughout aviation as we know it.


I seem to recall you complaining in a similar way on here at one point in time.
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That I hadn't upgraded in 6 months? No way, I'd challenge you to find something like that. My complaints were all related to 9L guys hired 2007-2008 that were getting upgrades over the XJ/9E guys hired in the 2006-2007 timeframe because of how the SLI and its conditions worked out. By then, I was 4 years into the company. I don't mind waiting my turn. But there's a difference between waiting your turn in proper seniority order and watching someone come and take it hired well after you while you can't even bid the plane they are coming off from. That was enough to get me to leave. I've been a career FO and have not complained about my current Co's growth slowdown. Had that slow down not occurred, I'd probably be upgrading right about now/next year. Now with the new plan it will be a couple more years but I really don't mind. Because the FO wage here is livable whereas a regional FO wage is simply not for anything more than a couple years.
 
BobDDuck said:
A) the BUF crash had less to do with lack of experience (on the part of the captain) and more to do with a lack of airmanship and B) experience certainly played a factor in some of the crashes listed above.



There were pretty large changes made after some of the crashes listed. They didn't change the foundation of the industry, but that's mostly because they happened outside the realm of 24/7 social media coverage.



I seem to recall you complaining in a similar way on here at one point in time.
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Hot damn, son. Drop that mic!
 
BE19Pilot said:
You keep believing that if it allows you to sleep at night...You're so steeped in ALPA dogma that you have lost the ability to accept the fact that ALPA has been a failure in negotiating contracts for it's members. Unless of course you work for UAL or DAL. Union cronyism is alive and well in Herndon. So, unless ALPA decides to have a convention to amend it's by-laws and drop this association model. I don't think you are going to stem the flow of pilots that are being alienated until ALPA changes the paradigm currently in place. But, we both know that the cronies in Herndon would never ever think of upsetting the apple cart. They have too much at stake in keeping things just the way they are.
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I don't think that's true at all. During the last 5 years, UAL has in fact NOT gotten a great contract, however other places like Spirit, Horizon, CommuteAir and PSA have.

And what exactly does cronyism have to do with anything? Having spent a fair amount of time in Herndon, I can say that I've never seen it. Examples?
 
Derg said:
Hot damn, son. Drop that mic!
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drop-the-mic.jpg
 
And what exactly does cronyism have to do with anything? Having spent a fair amount of time in Herndon, I can say that I've never seen it. Examples?
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I'm trying to find it now but I once came across a link that showed ALPA salaries for pretty much everyone working there. Even their editors, the same guys who gave their stamp of approval for the Tim Martins article. When you look at ALPA salaries and benefits for even their bottom-most/entry level positions, and compare that to regional wages, something isn't right.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
I'm trying to find it now but I once came across a link that showed ALPA salaries for pretty much everyone working there. Even their editors, the same guys who gave their stamp of approval for the Tim Martins article. When you look at ALPA salaries and benefits for even their bottom-most/entry level positions, and compare that to regional wages, something isn't right.
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Actually, when you compare the ALPA staff salaries to what staffers at other companies/organizations doing the exact same job make, you'll see that something isn't right, but not in the way you meant it here.

Comparing what a communications specialist makes to what a RJ FO makes is kind of like comparing apples to tacos so I'm not really sure where you are going with that.

The website you are trying to remember was most likely unionfacts(dot)com. I'm not actually going to give them the courtesy of a link. That site is run by "The Center For Union Facts" which is a communications, advocacy and policy (ie: lobbyist) firm owned by a Mr. Dick Berman. They won't disclose their sources of funding but in the past it's been traced to various Chamber of Commerces and major corporations who are fighting unionization on their properties. The "numbers" that are shown on that website have been disproved numerous times as they include all kinds of things that don't normally make up salaries as part of the pay packages these union staffers and leaders are getting.

Fun Fact: Dick Berman also runs the "PETA Kills Animals" campaign and manages the "Indoor Tanning Beds Association".
 
ALPA and the association model is archaic and doesn't function well under the current paradigm. Worked well prior to deregulation when the airlines were an oligopoly. Now, the "rice bowl" mentality has taken over and everyone is scrambling for the dropped grains at the second-tier ( regional ). If ALPA was functioning well as a bargaining agent as a whole, we would not have pilots screaming bloody murder, "hold the line", "stop the race to the bottom", etc...
I have no complaints over the staffers being paid commensurate with their duties and the average staffer is making a fair wage. All their ancillary services; medical, insurance, legal, etc...Are all well done. ALPA is the best independent safety organization in the airline industry, and no dispute there either.
So, having said that...The cronyism lies with the two big players DAL & UAL. They pay the most dues and have the control and would NEVER support any changes in the way ALPA's charter or by-laws are written. They will never support any effort to level the playing field and bring wages on par with what is commensurate for the duties and responsibilities of flying advanced equipment.
The real irony is that the majority of people covet jobs at the three remaining legacy carriers and to a lesser extent the LCCs. This is where all the money is, and that is fine with me. How do you reconcile this? Common pay rates by equipment, longevity that follows you from one ALPA carrier to the next? I doubt this would pass a vote...People don't want their hard-earned seniority neutralized and effect their seat, base, equipment or QOL. So, they want the association...but they get pissed off when the other pilot groups undercut them ( or they perceive it that way ). I believe this issue is what causes the most angst at the second-tier of the industry.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Yeah, at the expense of every XJ and 9E pilot. No way would I ever put my family on a Colgan plane, and even before the 2009 crash.
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There is a Cjc captain I flew with at Cjc who is now a captain over here on the 190 and I could fly with him. So I would prefer you not to put your family on anything bought from usairways.com or aa.com as we could end up in a crash killing your family.

Heck when I was displaced to pinnacle as a captain I once had an all colgan crew, as my FA and FO were former colganites. In my logbook under the remarks for that pairing I have "stick shaker on t/o, taxied off ramp into mud, couldn't get the engine started as there was no condition levers, and almost crashed due to high approach speeds". It's amazing me or my passengers are still around today . Thank god your family wasn't on any of those flights!!
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
And what happens when ARW is not chosen to receive any 70 seaters because their MEC does a fantastic job of turning down an offered substandard rate in order to hold the line?
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What line?
 
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