AA Wants to Sell Union on Codesharing, Bigger RJs

MQAAord said:
Dear AA Management,

You suck.

Cordially,
Current & Former AMR employees everywhere
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I like this version as well. Should be sent in one envelope, with a small golden parachute that says. "Not as big as you hoped, but more than you deserve."
 
Code sharing is the scary part. Invites JB to take over AA domestic mainline and become the US version of "Iberia Express"

Larger RJs have lower per departure costs than our 140-seat MD80s, which enables us to offer a better schedule without increasing capacity, since each larger RJ has far fewer seats than an MD80. And with this superior frequency pattern, American can earn higher yields because we can better schedule flights at times when customers are most willing to pay higher fares.​
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Their large regional jet argument is valid. Like it or not, AA needs larger regional jets to have a chance to compete financially with UNICAL and DAL. Then again AA pilots can just wait it out as UNICAL and DAL are expected(or as we speak in the case of DAL) to return a significant portion of regional flying back to mainline
 
Why would anyone ok something that would lead to the number of people needed to do your job being reduced.

Like the majority of people out there are working for American for the sake of American. Not because it's a paycheck. "well...I won't be able to pay my mortgage...but at least people will be able to go to aa.com to book tickets."
 
Just swap the MD-80s with with CRJ-900s for the exact same pay scale and keep the flying on mainline...sigh, if it were only that easy.
 
HVYMETALDRVR said:
Just swap the MD-80s with with CRJ-900s for the exact same pay scale and keep the flying on mainline...sigh, if it were only that easy.
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This may be a stupid question, but why wouldn't it be that easy?

If the mainline pilots want to recapture scope, then at some point they will have to fly something smaller than a MD-80 or a 737-700. A CRJ-900 does just about the same job as a DC-9, and a EMB-170 comes pretty close to a 737 classic. Those were mainline jobs at one point, who cares if they aren't made by Boeing?
 
Screaming_Emu said:
Why would anyone ok something that would lead to the number of people needed to do your job being reduced.
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You know the answer, but for those playing along at home...

Because it won't be THEIR job that gets reduced. They are too senior to be pushed out the bottom and will do anything it takes to protect what they currently have for the next 5-10 years until they retire. Lovely industry we work in huh?
 
USMCmech said:
This may be a stupid question, but why wouldn't it be that easy?

If the mainline pilots want to recapture scope, then at some point they will have to fly something smaller than a MD-80 or a 737-700. A CRJ-900 does just about the same job as a DC-9, and a EMB-170 comes pretty close to a 737 classic. Those were mainline jobs at one point, who cares if they aren't made by Boeing?
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Does the EMB-170 have the overall payload and pax carrying capacity of the 737's that are being flown(400's and up I think)? You don't get much more of a workhorse than a 737, and I'd honestly be surprised if a EMB-170 could replace it, but I don't know enough about either. My guess is the only way the EMB does better is with the lower pay scales of ALL the supporting personnel.... like at a regional.
 
z987k said:
Does the EMB-170 have the overall payload and pax carrying capacity of the 737's that are being flown(400's and up I think)? You don't get much more of a workhorse than a 737, and I'd honestly be surprised if a EMB-170 could replace it, but I don't know enough about either. My guess is the only way the EMB does better is with the lower pay scales of ALL the supporting personnel.... like at a regional.
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ZOMG! I'll take a 150 seat for pennies on the dollar because that will qualify me somewhere down the line for real 150 seat pay!

And people wonder why people spend 3500 hours in pistons.
 
USMCmech said:
This may be a stupid question, but why wouldn't it be that easy?

If the mainline pilots want to recapture scope, then at some point they will have to fly something smaller than a MD-80 or a 737-700. A CRJ-900 does just about the same job as a DC-9, and a EMB-170 comes pretty close to a 737 classic. Those were mainline jobs at one point, who cares if they aren't made by Boeing?
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Its not that easy because labor cost does't revolve around pilots and a specific payrate. First you have mainline pilot payrates, workrules and benefits. Now take all the other labor groups (mechanics, rampers, dispatchers, OCC/TOC peeps, vendors etc etc) and add them into the mainline cost equation. And now go to each one of those groups and tell them match regional pay and benefits when they are working on certain aircraft. Good luck, we're all counting on ya!
 
Trip7's analysis may not be popular, but it is accurate. The problem that AMR has is that all of their competition is allowed to outsource flying on 76 seat airplanes. AMR is severely restricted by the APA contract in this regard. That places them at a competitive disadvantage. Putting the airplanes at mainline would cost a whole hell of a lot more than outsourcing the flying, and that's true even if the pilots agreed to fly the airplanes for regional rates. Because, as Trip7 points out, the pilots are only a portion of the labor costs. And even for the pilots, the rates are only a small portion of their total pilot CASM. Benefits for AMR pilots are also a lot more expensive than benefits for regional pilots. And you can bet that they wouldn't be willing to fly for regional work rules, either.

So, it's a little more complicated than just putting the airplanes at mainline. Some form of scope concessions is inevitable at AMR. It's just a matter of how much and what kind.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Trip7's analysis may not be popular, but it is accurate. The problem that AMR has is that all of their competition is allowed to outsource flying on 76 seat airplanes. AMR is severely restricted by the APA contract in this regard. That places them at a competitive disadvantage. Putting the airplanes at mainline would cost a whole hell of a lot more than outsourcing the flying, and that's true even if the pilots agreed to fly the airplanes for regional rates. Because, as Trip7 points out, the pilots are only a portion of the labor costs. And even for the pilots, the rates are only a small portion of their total pilot CASM. Benefits for AMR pilots are also a lot more expensive than benefits for regional pilots. And you can bet that they wouldn't be willing to fly for regional work rules, either.

So, it's a little more complicated than just putting the airplanes at mainline. Some form of scope concessions is inevitable at AMR. It's just a matter of how much and what kind.
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It may not be popular but its reality. I find that the general line pilot(especially those on forums) don't except reality and still have in their head their own version of airline utopia. Statements like JoeFriday's they should focus on getting the 90 seaters at mainline because "that's where the belong" completely ignore the economic reality of today's regional aircraft market. Fortunately most Union Leadership(especially ALPA National) in the industry understand the economics of the industry and use it to their benefit. ASA ALPA realized that the economic environment of the regional industry would inevitable lead to PBS at ASA. They used this to their advantage and negotiating and industry leading PBS. There were many that strongly believed the MEC should of been militant and say no because "line bidding is what belonged at ASA" Sound familiar?

However like I said before, things are in an unprecedented flux right now. DAL and UNICAL in contract negotiations, DAL rapidly reducing regional flying and increasing MD90/A320 flying, UNICAL ordering 100 737 MAX to replace 50 seat flying, regionals running out of ATP rule qualified pilots etc etc. Things can change in a heartbeat and there will be a lot of big announcements coming in the next several months. AA pilots would be best served waiting things out. I easily can see them going from the most expensive pilot group to third. Changes like that have a big effect on negotiations.
 
Hey guys, US Airways is offering us Delta plus three percent*!

* read the Delta scope clause recently?


Sent from Seat 3D
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Trip7's analysis may not be popular, but it is accurate. The problem that AMR has is that all of their competition is allowed to outsource flying on 76 seat airplanes. AMR is severely restricted by the APA contract in this regard. That places them at a competitive disadvantage. Putting the airplanes at mainline would cost a whole hell of a lot more than outsourcing the flying, and that's true even if the pilots agreed to fly the airplanes for regional rates. Because, as Trip7 points out, the pilots are only a portion of the labor costs. And even for the pilots, the rates are only a small portion of their total pilot CASM. Benefits for AMR pilots are also a lot more expensive than benefits for regional pilots. And you can bet that they wouldn't be willing to fly for regional work rules, either.
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The TWU has the tightest scope not APA. Kind of funny in a sad way.
 
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