A student that lies...

Bumblebee said:
it's one thing to be late and quite another to lie...
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Eh, the way I viewed it when I was a CFI was that I was there to teach aviation, not life lessons. If anything, I'd put the chat about lying in the context of "You'll get tossed from training at any company if you do it," but never in a way that conveys personal offense. To do the latter, in my mind, would break down the instructor/student relationship. You need to be seen as a professional, the professional, at all times.
 
dasleben said:
I wouldn't have been so aggressive, but that's me. He's a client, not a child. I'd bill him for the full amount of the booked time and send him on his way. If he doesn't learn to show up on time, then I'd gladly keep billing him for nothing until he does.
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I agree with what Ben said. He (his parents) is a paying customer so he should be treated as such. Maybe give him a hard time in a funny way, and CHARGE him. Although I know its tough sometimes but a big part of a CFIs job is customer service. Depending on the company/school I have seen CFIs fired for engaging a customer over something thats not directly related to a safety or legal issue. Is it right? Well really thats a case by case issue. Like you said in your post its how you pay your bills so just play it off and charge him. If you feel you still can't teach him just handle it however your company wants you to deal with dropping a student.
 
I agree
dasleben said:
Eh, the way I viewed it when I was a CFI was that I was there to teach aviation, not life lessons. If anything, I'd put the chat about lying in the context of "You'll get tossed from training at any company if you do it," but never in a way that conveys personal offense. To do the latter, in my mind, would break down the instructor/student relationship. You need to be seen as a professional, the professional, at all times.
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with this, I just don't buy the he's a customer, just let it roll.
 
I don't think that was too harsh at all.

I think that both being on time and fessing up to your mistakes are core traits that we want pilots to have for many purposes. True, we are not life coaches as instructors, but these two traits are also part of good airmanship, which it absolutely is our responsibility to teach. The earlier comment about fudging weight and balance, or cheating weather mins -- flying is a very numbers-based, rules-based hobby and profession, and I think someone who "gets away" with such behavior while a student (without an instructor correcting him) will take away the lesson that such a mentality is okay as a certificated airman, too.

For me, personally, both of those things (timeliness and integrity) are hot-button issues. In the military, brief times are sacred -- things start at the 'hack!', period. If you are one minute late to your briefing room, you arrive to a door that is closed with the briefing underway with someone else instead of you. Similarly, not telling the truth (or not fessing up to your mistakes) is an unforgivable sin that immediately eats away at the trust between aviators.
 
i think that it was not harsh at all, he was wasting your time which equaled money to feed and house yourself. Then after the fact he tried to lie to your face about it, sounds like person who has a habit of talking his way out of situations where he is wrong. Not a good trait to have when striving to be a pilot. Hopefully your discussion struck a chord with the kid, but I wouldn't hold your breath on it...
 
Other than the sarcastic part, I think you did great! Ive had several students lie to my face as well, and sometimes you just got to lay down the law to get things done. MAYBE (unless he is really stuck up) you earned yourself some respect from him that your not a push over and he cant walk all over you.

Best of luck with him!
 
Depends on where you instruct at, also. If you're at a Mom and Pop FBO, just begging for anyone to walk in the door, you might have to approach it differently than a revolving door Asian academy.
 
I'm working 8 to 14 hour days. I'm booked out 2 weeks. If he wasn't going to show, you best believe I could of had an intro flight or another student in for ground. My school is very up and down. Some months we fly 30 hours, others we fly over 100. This is our "busy season", and we are incredibly busy. I ended up handing this student off to our new instructor to be his first student. I have several other good students who don't stress me out like this kid does and I don't need the grief over it. I'll still help him if he needs it, but I definitely lost a lot of respect for him. Next time, I won't be so aggressive/harsh about it though. I think that could make the situation worse in some scenarios. He might go home and tell his parents "my instructor accused me of lying" or something to that effect, and given his actions thus far, I'd say his parents have held his hand a little too much and might get upset that their little angel is being accused of something they know he would never do. So in the future, I'll keep my cool and just let students know that I will be charging them for my time, whether they show up or not. Thanks for all the replies guys.
 
chrisreedrules said:
I think that could make the situation worse in some scenarios. He might go home and tell his parents "my instructor accused me of lying" or something to that effect
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And how would having your little lying sissy-boy student going home and crying to his parents make things worse for you? You lose him as a student?

Considering you started off your post with, "I'm booked out two weeks....", I say 'good riddance'.
 
Other than the sarcastic part, I think that you handled it well. I have also had students who had everything handed to them. Some of them straightened up and went on to get their Private Pilot's License, others did not and decided to pursue a different hobby. I had some students that were shocked when they realized that they actually had to study in order to get their PPL. I always charged for my time when a student no called/no showed. I never charged when they called to let me know that they had to cancel, even if it was last minute. I understand that life happens sometimes, but at least have the courtesy to call and let me know. Charging was usually enough to get the point across.

Hopefully you don't have too many students that are like that.
 
Hacker15e said:
And how would having your little lying sissy-boy student going home and crying to his parents make things worse for you? You lose him as a student?

Considering you started off your post with, "I'm booked out two weeks....", I say 'good riddance'.
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Because pissed parents tend to call bosses. And whether it be a scolding, a talking to, or a reprimand, I don't like being called into the bosses office for anything but a pay raise. The customer is king around here. I will just mind my temper so it doesn't ever put me in a sticky situation. And it is good riddance, trust me haha. He has proven to be one of my most difficult students thus far. I've never flown with someone who takes 6 lessons and still can't fly straight and level, climb, turn, or descend. I've tried everything but nothing has worked. I was going to let it go for a couple more lessons and if he didn't show any improvement, I was going to have to have "the talk". So maybe me handing him off to the new guy was a blessing in disguise for him... Maybe he can get through to him and make it work.
 
I probably would have said, "Well, since you're late we only have time for ground. We'll have to put off the flight until next time." I bet he would show up on time next time. ;)
 
Lots of ways to skin a cat. What you did might have been harsh but this is a harsh business that is unforgiving of errors or, in fact, lying, whether to yourself or to other people. Personally what I would have said is, "hey your clock started at 2 PM, don't know where you were but it wasn't my office, now we have x topics to do on the ground before we fly so I'm going to cancel the airplane this afternoon and we will just do ground."
 
Hacker15e said:
For me, personally, both of those things (timeliness and integrity) are hot-button issues. In the military, brief times are sacred -- things start at the 'hack!', period. If you are one minute late to your briefing room, you arrive to a door that is closed with the briefing underway with someone else instead of you. Similarly, not telling the truth (or not fessing up to your mistakes) is an unforgivable sin that immediately eats away at the trust between aviators.
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If anything, he was too light on the kid. As to the above, woe be the guy who shows late to a brief where the door is closed, THEN has the gall to try and enter!

pilot4500 said:
Other than the sarcastic part, I think that you handled it well.
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Fear, sarcasm and ridicule. The three basic traits of Undergraduate Pilot Training....:)
 
I instruct at a university flight program and if the student isn't there within a specified period of time before the lesson, he gets no showed. There are different penalties depending on how many times the student got no showed. Personally I don't think you were too hard at all. Its the students responsibility for showing up on time and being prepared, if they cannot do that, then maybe they shouldn't be a pilot. If the student is honest with me and tells me he will be late, no problem at all happens to everybody.
 
dasleben said:
Eh, the way I viewed it when I was a CFI was that I was there to teach aviation, not life lessons. If anything, I'd put the chat about lying in the context of "You'll get tossed from training at any company if you do it," but never in a way that conveys personal offense. To do the latter, in my mind, would break down the instructor/student relationship. You need to be seen as a professional, the professional, at all times.
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The instructor/student relationship is "you're being taught. Learn it or wash out of training." :)

Seriously though, while a customer is a customer; it doesn't mean the instructor has to be a chump and take whatever crap the customer chooses to give. The customer doesn't HAVE to be your customer, he can go be someone elses' problem with his crap attitude.
 
I knew a guy like this. He wasn't my student, but tried to take his uncle on his solo cross country. He played dumb, but I made him pull out his Student Pilot Certificate and read it to me. I also asked him why he had his uncle go through a different fence, instead of the FBO. He eventually left the school. He ended up going to another school (which I work for now), literally stole a plane, flew it to Chicago and back, and landed with 2-3 gallons of fuel left (172SP). Wildcard.
 
It's simple in the Navy, he gets a ready room unsat and two of those = attrition from the flight program. I know the military is different in its standards but you be there on time, there is no excuse like that.
 
bunk22 said:
It's simple in the Navy, he gets a ready room unsat and two of those = attrition from the flight program. I know the military is different in its standards but you be there on time, there is no excuse like that.
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But why should BASIC standards of conduct be different between the two? Basic things like integrity, punctuality, preparation? Is that REALLY asking too much of a civilian?
 
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