ATC perspective is interesting from what you've heard on your end, or from what's been brought up here? Just curious, no need to post details if you can't.
A Real Discussion About the Dreamlifter Accidental Landing
- Thread starter Mike Wise
- Start date
ATC perspective is interesting from what you've heard on your end, or from what's been brought up here? Just curious, no need to post details if you can't.
Polar742
All the responsibility none of the authority
When one lands at an offline airport, as airlines tend to do for charters, performance engineers take data provided by the manufacturer, requirements from the FARs or panops and provide analysis data for takeoff. Usually this is canned data, but in this instance the airport might have to have engineering do the analysis. The process of which is way out of my pay grade.
Polar742
All the responsibility none of the authority
Right now, I can't say.
There is an internal process being worked.
That being said, I've seen the results of other investigation of incidents and the input data is very complete.
So this is what's done on the administrative/operational end for offline fields, part and parcel from normal computations that the available length / load bearing / etc, will work from takeoff tab data?
Good deal. And like I said, the discussion here in this thread is very general in nature and really only asking questions that will be answered as info comes out; as well as a discussion of general scenarios and factors that relate to those scenarios. Any part of that discussion that happens to match evidence in the case of this incident, will be purely coincidental.
genot
Well-Known Member
ICT is an up down located in Wichita Tower. I've met quite a few of the controllers there.
Polar742
All the responsibility none of the authority
The process the company uses and the data from the airplane is very complete.
That being said, one can pull up cockpit photos and see the SA tools we have on a 744.
I will say much speculation on the type of approach and tuning, or not, of certain nav aids has little to no bearing on the SA in the airplane. Obviously a lot of our speculators have no time in an integrated Boeing cockpit.
Yes, thats why all I've posted are the factuals of the runway closure and non-availability of the ILS, as well as what kind of external approach procedures remained. Aside from that, I don't know what the crew was using or would have been using for navigation or positional SA, as I don't fly Boeing products with the integration, and I'm not on this investigation. It is one of my questions though, which will be answered in due time when facts can be released.
genot
Well-Known Member
Seems like others know more than they can say. For the record, I know nothing more than what the news has reported.
At the risk of sounding very ignorant it seems from my limited information that they were on the RNAV 19 per their call to the tower. From my view based on the audio, if someone calls Missed Rnav ... er ... GPS RNAV GPS 19L thats about my cue to ensure we're on the same page. AAO doesn't have an RNAV 19L. Dual runways either for that matter. Still doesn't alleviate ATC in my mind under normal ops.
At the risk of sounding very ignorant it seems from my limited information that they were on the RNAV 19 per their call to the tower. From my view based on the audio, if someone calls Missed Rnav ... er ... GPS RNAV GPS 19L thats about my cue to ensure we're on the same page. AAO doesn't have an RNAV 19L. Dual runways either for that matter. Still doesn't alleviate ATC in my mind under normal ops.
ahw01
Well-Known Member
On the beacons, I've flown to Tucson night VFR and you do have to double check white+green vs white white green from DMA. I don't think DMA was lit up like a christmas tree either, but situational awareness helps. It sounds like they were also night VFR when they landed, so had responsibility for their navigation - if still IFR then the approach from ATC couldn't have messed them up.
Polar742
All the responsibility none of the authority
Sorry I missed this earlier. All airports we go to regularly, or expect to go into, have all this already done. Others, the data may have to be worked separately.
At thhe end of the day,. The crew goes through the same process to get takeoff data. It's all real time inputs, math in the machine, numbers come back in the form of thrust setting, flaps, speeds & OEI maneuver if one is needed.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
Yes, it is required by USAF instructions.
z987k
Well-Known Member
Hilariously so.
"Caravan 123, check gear down, cleared to land 14."
"Caravan 123, gear down and welded, cleared to land 14."
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
You are the first person to ever make that joke.
ghoster
Onward Thru the Fog
Back in the Dark ages, I learned to fly at BIF and pilots were always confusing the two airports even to the extent that controllers at ELP started advising pilots to "confirm intended airport". Fun times.
Autothrust Blue
Welcome aboard the Washington State Ferries
Yeah, fair enough.
That said, though, I will agree that insofar as there being a good number of airports somewhat jammed within a particular geographic area, the ICT area does have that.
queeno
Ward of the Guberment
as a former USAF Tower Controller I would not want to be in the shoes of the crew at KIAB tower that night, Military atc ops though similar to Civ atc ops in many ways are a totally different beast and in the eyes of the military they may (depending on the facts ) be held just as culpable as the pilots for this.