A lot of Union talk lately, so why.....

akaFlyboy 4

akaFlyboy 4

New Member
Maybe a dumb question but if I don't ask I will never find out. Also my intention is NOT to start a fight but this is an honest question looking for productive discussions.:)

So why don't airline pilots have a Union separate from any airline group? A Union that you have to belong to for the privilege of being an airline pilot in the U.S. All stage hands have to have a union card to work. Stage Hands!? Couldn't airline pilots put together a Union that if you don’t carry their card you don't fly commercial. I know there probably is some obvious reason like a government rule or reg.

I have seen both good sides and bad sides to Unions but as bad as pilots have been treated since 911 who can argue against some type of protection to Pensions, Wages, Upgrades, Work Schedules and so on?
 
Most airlines are a part of ALPA, if they're not in ALPA they're Teamsters or their own union (Southwest).
 
And that's the million dollar question. If ALPA was a REAL union you'd have:

1. One comphrehensive pay scale and set of work rules for every unionized airline pilot.
2. A national seniority list
3. If you wanted to hire an airline pilot, you'd go down to the ALPA Union Hall and get the names of the 5 or 10 senior guys who were either out of work or expressed an interest in changing airlines.

But, ALPA isn't a Union. Its an Association. Its a group of individual airline MECs that operate independently within a national framework. National provides technical support in the form of lawyers and technical experts in the fields of communication, aeromedical, negotiation, retirement, insurance and aviation safety. Each individual MEC can elect to follow ALPA National's advice or not.

That's why quagmires like the AAA/AWA seniority list merger happen...the AAA MEC stuck doggedly to their Date of Hire position even though ALPA National advised them to modify their stance. When the Arbitrator ruled against them, they threw a hissy and are now threatening to withdraw from the Union. And there are several other cases you can point to in recent history.

Why don't airline pilots act like typical trade unionists? Its because the 40 years of government regulation provided a level of wages that "convinced" most airline pilots they were Republicans. They ignored deregulation until it was too late. The downward spiral started and pilots still don't have the gumption to even admit we are just blue collar labor...a cost management will forever try to minimize.

Will airline pilots EVER stand up and decide to act like real trade unionists? Hasn't happened yet.
 
I agree with Velo. I am completely in favor of a unionized pilot group nationwide. I am a little disappointed with ALPA and their efforts of late. I also believe the tactics of marching with signs and inflatable over-grown rats in front of corporate offices is also something that needs to be addressed. I believe pilots need to act like the true professionals we are and resort to business-like negotiation tactics rather than marching yelling "fair wages, fair healthcare." We as pilots hold a lot of power at the airlines, it's time we start acting like it.

ALPA needs an overhaul.
 
jtrain609 said:
Most airlines are a part of ALPA, if they're not in ALPA they're Teamsters or their own union (Southwest).
Click to expand...

Thanks jtrain I appreciate that information. That helps paint the picture of what is going on. At least some organization is being attempted. I will not pass judgement on the effectiveness of these groups since I don't have the experience. I am convinced that there needs one organization that can act with the full power of a Union.
 
meritflyer said:
I agree with Velo. I am completely in favor of a unionized pilot group nationwide. I am a little disappointed with ALPA and their efforts of late. I also believe the tactics of marching with signs and inflatable over-grown rats in front of corporate offices is also something that needs to be addressed. I believe pilots need to act like the true professionals we are and resort to business-like negotiation tactics rather than marching yelling "fair wages, fair healthcare." We as pilots hold a lot of power at the airlines, it's time we start acting like it.

ALPA needs an overhaul.
Click to expand...


Then you can go volunteer for positions. Need the contact info for the ExpressJet MEC?
 
You are correct, but just try to get a bunch of Republicans to act like blue collar labor. Once when I asked one of our guys if he donated to ALPA-PAC, he said, "I give $200 a year to the NRA." I said, "So, basicly what your saying is keeping an arsenal in your basement is more important to you than your job." "Yep." he said.

That ended the conversation. Try to get a guy like that to buy into real Unionism.
 
Velocipede said:
And that's the million dollar question. If ALPA was a REAL union you'd have:

1. One comphrehensive pay scale and set of work rules for every unionized airline pilot.
2. A national seniority list
3. If you wanted to hire an airline pilot, you'd go down to the ALPA Union Hall and get the names of the 5 or 10 senior guys who were either out of work or expressed an interest in changing airlines.

But, ALPA isn't a Union. Its an Association. Its a group of individual airline MECs that operate independently within a national framework. National provides technical support in the form of lawyers and technical experts in the fields of communication, aeromedical, negotiation, retirement, insurance and aviation safety. Each individual MEC can elect to follow ALPA National's advice or not.

That's why quagmires like the AAA/AWA seniority list merger happen...the AAA MEC stuck doggedly to their Date of Hire position even though ALPA National advised them to modify their stance. When the Arbitrator ruled against them, they threw a hissy and are now threatening to withdraw from the Union. And there are several other cases you can point to in recent history.

Why don't airline pilots act like typical trade unionists? Its because the 40 years of government regulation provided a level of wages that "convinced" most airline pilots they were Republicans. They ignored deregulation until it was too late. The downward spiral started and pilots still don't have the gumption to even admit we are just blue collar labor...a cost management will forever try to minimize.

Will airline pilots EVER stand up and decide to act like real trade unionists? Hasn't happened yet.
Click to expand...

One of the best posts I've ever seen on here. Agree 100%.

A Union is a way for pilots to stand behind each other to fight for fair wages and work rules. Right now, the best thing going is ALPA. But I do agree, it needs an overhaul. I won't hold my breath.

And btw, I like having an arsenol of weapons in my basement too, but I won't give the NRA any of my money. They are a bit too extreme for me. I don't believe we need AK47's available over the counter, but the right to bear arms is something I believe in strongly as a sportsmen.
 
Velocipede said:
And that's the million dollar question. If ALPA was a REAL union you'd have:

1. One comphrehensive pay scale and set of work rules for every unionized airline pilot.
2. A national seniority list
3. If you wanted to hire an airline pilot, you'd go down to the ALPA Union Hall and get the names of the 5 or 10 senior guys who were either out of work or expressed an interest in changing airlines.

But, ALPA isn't a Union. Its an Association. Its a group of individual airline MECs that operate independently within a national framework. National provides technical support in the form of lawyers and technical experts in the fields of communication, aeromedical, negotiation, retirement, insurance and aviation safety. Each individual MEC can elect to follow ALPA National's advice or not.

That's why quagmires like the AAA/AWA seniority list merger happen...the AAA MEC stuck doggedly to their Date of Hire position even though ALPA National advised them to modify their stance. When the Arbitrator ruled against them, they threw a hissy and are now threatening to withdraw from the Union. And there are several other cases you can point to in recent history.

Why don't airline pilots act like typical trade unionists? Its because the 40 years of government regulation provided a level of wages that "convinced" most airline pilots they were Republicans. They ignored deregulation until it was too late. The downward spiral started and pilots still don't have the gumption to even admit we are just blue collar labor...a cost management will forever try to minimize.

Will airline pilots EVER stand up and decide to act like real trade unionists? Hasn't happened yet.
Click to expand...

This is crazy I know, but you're 100% spot on.

I wish we'd take a collective stand, but I'm not sure it'll ever happen, which is kind of depressing.
 
meritflyer said:
Got it, thanks.

It's going to take a national drive Seggy.
Click to expand...


I know, so you can start volunteering at the local and then national level to try to change things.

Not directed at you, but it is easy to say "things need to change" on the internet and then don't do jack to change it.
 
Velocipede said:
And that's the million dollar question. If ALPA was a REAL union you'd have:


Will airline pilots EVER stand up and decide to act like real trade unionists? Hasn't happened yet.
Click to expand...

Thanks Velo
So what can be done? Where does it start? I am going to talk to some hi ups in other unions that I know. Where does someone find out which government agency sets the rules on starting a National Union, Is it the FAA?

I would think with all the educated, professional pilots out there we could find the leadership to make this happen. I am not naive I realize there are a lot of anti union people out there. Most probably have valid reasons for feeling that way. I also realize it is hard to make everyone happy or take care of everyone’s concerns but it has to be obvious to everyone that with all the volatility in the airline business we need a union that can protect your pension, your seniority your profession with out being limited to only certain groups of pilots.
 
meritflyer said:
I agree with Velo. I am completely in favor of a unionized pilot group nationwide. I am a little disappointed with ALPA and their efforts of late. I also believe the tactics of marching with signs and inflatable over-grown rats in front of corporate offices is also something that needs to be addressed. I believe pilots need to act like the true professionals we are and resort to business-like negotiation tactics rather than marching yelling "fair wages, fair healthcare." We as pilots hold a lot of power at the airlines, it's time we start acting like it.

ALPA needs an overhaul.
Click to expand...

Well posted - be a professional that can be respected....
 
Seggy said:
Yep. Not anytime soon though. Can't do much work for ALPA when your pilot group says no to them.

ALPA is a good organization. Yes it has its issues, but they are what we have to protect our jobs.
Click to expand...
No doubt its a good organization that needs some work to actually do what it was set up to do.
 
In part, it's because the RLA is not set up to allow a strong national union. The RLA does not recognize ALPA, it recognizes local bargaining units at particular airlines (which may then choose to affiliate with ALPA). In addition, the RLA is designed to avoid labor stoppages except as a very, very last resort. Keeping the national transportation system moving is a primary consideration. As a result, it would be all but impossible to have a legal national, industry-wide work stoppage, which is what it took to get the strong national agreements to which you refer. Finally, even if the law were supportive, it still takes a lot of effort and determination to make those types of arrangements come together and stick. I think it's probably fair to say that getting all airline pilots on the same page and determined to make a national union happen is unlikely under the best of circumstances.
 
Minnesota_Flyer said:
In part, it's because the RLA is not set up to allow a strong national union..
Click to expand...

I can think of a number of members of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers who would take issue with your statement. Although you are correct about individual bargaining units, the railroad unions prove that there can be a LOT more collective muscle flexed than ALPA does.
 
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