A Load of BS.

Re: A Formal Invite!!

"you must have the free time to take a short 2 hour flight down to Arizona and get some sunshine."

I get all the sunshine I need in Guadalaraja.

"I am sure that the people in charge of marketing would be happy to sit down with you and answer your questions about why they do the things that they do"

Aloft said the people in charge of your marketing don't know anything about aviation. Why would they want to listen to me? In spite of that, if you're marketing people want to talk to me. My email is in my profile.

"bring the clubs and we can take in a round!!" Golf is for sissy's...I play basketball.

Look. I have the answer I was seeking. It's more important for Jetcareers to get PanAm's advertising money than it is for PanAm to change what it says at their banner ad....

It's really that simple. I can live with it.
 
Re: A Formal Invite!!

[ QUOTE ]
"you must have the free time to take a short 2 hour flight down to Arizona and get some sunshine."

I get all the sunshine I need in Guadalaraja.

"I am sure that the people in charge of marketing would be happy to sit down with you and answer your questions about why they do the things that they do"

Aloft said the people in charge of your marketing don't know anything about aviation. Why would they want to listen to me? In spite of that, if you're marketing people want to talk to me. My email is in my profile.

"bring the clubs and we can take in a round!!" Golf is for sissy's...I play basketball.

Look. I have the answer I was seeking. It's more important for Jetcareers to get PanAm's advertising money than it is for PanAm to change what it says at their banner ad....

It's really that simple. I can live with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I guess no one can say I never tried.
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By the way, what is in the "banner ad" that is so horrible?

"Airline Structured Ciriculum"
"Diverse Placement Opportunities"
"Financing and VA reimbursement available"

OH THE HORROR!!!!
sarcasm.gif
 
Re: A Formal Invite!!

I was clear in previous posts about what bothers me. You can go back and take a look.

I posted this link at our UPS pilot forum.

http://www.panamacademy.com/career.asp?ID=350

Only one response so far.

"No different than the crap FAPA has put out for years, and sometimes it does come true, the airline of you dreams, or nightmare"
 
Re: A Formal Invite!!

[ QUOTE ]
By the way, what is in the "banner ad" that is so horrible?

[/ QUOTE ]

The current one, nothing. The initial one had a few of us scratching our heads. It was claiming a "gauranteed" airline career. The way it's worded now, I don't have a problem with it. They need some serious updating on their website, but I've already mentioned that. Hell, I've got some spare time. I'll update it for them for a modest fee....
 
Re: A Formal Invite!!

Oh...I'm not so concered about the banner ad itself. It's some of the stuff inside that bothers me. And the fact that I see it at all at Jetcareers....hehe....
 
Re: A Formal Invite!!

I guess I was just replying to this statement...

"Look. I have the answer I was seeking. It's more important for Jetcareers to get PanAm's advertising money than it is for PanAm to change what it says at their banner ad..."

I really doubt you saw anything that said "guarantee" in it, and how about a little credit for changing what was there,eh?
 
Re: A Formal Invite!!

I've debated the last few days over whether I should join in this melee, but since I was almost involved in a midair a few weeks ago with a PA plane at FPR whose pilots had a major loss of SA, what the heck.

I think one of the first steps Pan Am can do about their marketing is to stop referring and linking to the almighty "Tarver Report". I feel that is one thing that contributes to the feeling of a "load of BS" in their marketing practices. As far as the banner ad, do "Diverse Placement Opportunities" include the smaller flight school across the field in FPR? We always seem to have a couple of former Pan Am flight instructors employed here at one time or the other. Why do they need to seek employment at other flight schools if Pan Am can get them to an airline faster? The reasons our school has to hire them are because 1) they are available and 2) the instructors here are actually leaving for jobs pretty quickly because of the serious multi-time they build.

Now, I must add, like MikeD I have no problem with the worker bees and the students. Its the upper management and their marketing practices that I have a beef with. I know how it is to be a starry-eyed wannabe inundated with the overhyped ads, slick brochures, and promotional computer DVDs. Thank God I found JC or I probably would have ended up at Pan Am myself. I like having my ratings without debt.
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Re: A Formal Invite!!

"I think one of the first steps Pan Am can do about their marketing is to stop referring and linking to the almighty "Tarver Report"."

Thanks. I haven't clicked on that yet.

Judy Tarver was this lady who used to be the hiring lady at American Airlines....back in the day. I'd rather not click on the link, lest my blood pressure be raised. Can you summerize it for me?
 
Re: A Formal Invite!!

Melee? You call this a melee?

Doug said: If they can't take the heat and step up to answer constructive criticism, chances are they'll get pissed, drop ads and "ad natural selection" takes place.

I'm about to unleash a heated series of constructive criticism's about PanAm's marketing practices.

My guess is they will ignore me.

Stay tuned....
 
Re: A Formal Invite!!

[ QUOTE ]
I'd rather not click on the link, lest my blood pressure be raised. Can you summerize it for me?

[/ QUOTE ]DE727UPS, you'd better sit down and get some blood pressure medication handy. Proceed with caution
smirk.gif
:

From the Tarver Report:
...Frankly, anyone can teach you how to fly and help you get your ratings. But airlines are looking for pilots who have been through a highly regimented program that will teach you proper procedures from the very beginning...

...For example, a commercial pilot with a 35-year career (beginning at age 25 and retiring at age 60) can earn in excess of $12 million over a career...

...For the last ten years, the industry has been projecting a pilot shortage...

...Airlines are retiring pilots at an accelerated pace...

...According to the FAA, new pilot certificates issued dropped significantly after 1992 and are still not gaining steam. In spite of industry initiatives there is little progress in accelerating the pilot pool...

...All this means is that as demand continues to grow and retirements accelerate, there are fewer and fewer qualified applicants to move into these very well paying career positions...

I warned you.
grin.gif
 
Re: A Formal Invite!!

oh my...it's 1224am. Now I'm not gonna get any sleep. I'll check it out later. Thanks for the preview.
 
Re: A Formal Invite!!

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I respect your decision, though I disagree with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would like to cordially invite DE727UPS to visit the Deer Valley campus of Pan Am International Flight Academy, on a date and time of his choosing.

Let's put an end to this banter once and for all. For all the time that has been spent on this website, you must have the free time to take a short 2 hour flight down to Arizona and get some sunshine. (Albeit, it is pouring outside right now!)

I am sure that the people in charge of marketing would be happy to sit down with you and answer your questions about why they do the things that they do, the changes that are coming, and whatever else is on your mind. You could visit with current students of your choosing. You could sit through one of our ground schools. The options are endless!!! Heck, if you golf, bring the clubs and we can take in a round!!

What do you think?

[/ QUOTE ]

Lima,
Did you really think Mr. UPS would accept your invitation? The fact that Mr. UPS didn't accept says leaps and bounds about him. Totally biased, without even going to the source for answers.
On Pan Am doing things behind the scenes to improve their marketing and or image: I got a call from a marketing firm hired by Pan Am to question current and former students on how their experience is/was at Pan Am, and what we thought they could do to make any improvements. There is one positive example of how Pan Am is responding.
 
Re: A Formal Invite!!

Oh, I knew he wouldn't accept. I am sure he is quite content lobbing stones at Pan Am from his comfy little computer chair. You would think that a TRUE watchdog, would be willing to put a little more effort into finding out the truth. I just really hope he is not sitting naked in a bean bag eating cheetos!!! :-)
 
Re: A Formal Invite!!

The truth is your marketing sucks.

When you get it fixed, I'll become neutral on PanAm.

We could talk about the Seminole plastered on the side of the hill in SoCal as a testament to how great your training is...if you´d like to go there?

Beyond that. I could care less about your school. Like I've said a million times, my experiences and my friends have been with non-big-academy type training. I think you'd admit that I've been quite successful in aviation without having gone to one (except I did get my CFII at Riddle). My friends are everywhere from a newhire at Amflight to CRJ check airman at Mesa and Skywest. Why mess with success?

There are those that choose the academy route. It's not a big deal to me, though I don't recommended it. Why should I?

Doug made a big mistake accepting your ad. There is sooooo much marketing BS at your website and the prescense of the ad taints jetcareers. Unfortunately, I care a lot about this site and it´s creadability.

Fix the marketing and I´ll leave you guys alone.

Come visit your school? Not gonna happen.

Sneak into one of seminars and raise the BS flag if need be. Just a matter of time....
 
Re: A Formal Invite!!

Fine... the marketing sucks. If that is the biggest gem of wisdom you can impart from your vast 20 years of experience, then you can keep it. If you have some thoughts on what "we", as pilots are concerned, can do to become better pilots, then I am all ears. I would think that since the teaching of aviation is so near and dear, and don't forget sacred to you, you would be spending much more time helping the young freshly minted CFI's that visit become better at what they do, rather than spending your time being the litttle "Mr. Watchdog."

As I have seen MikeD state it, as a CFI, I probably have no idea what I don't know, and I am sure I am not the only one. Why not put some effort into those people?
 
Re: A Formal Invite!!

[ QUOTE ]
I got a call from a marketing firm hired by Pan Am to question current and former students on how their experience is/was at Pan Am, and what we thought they could do to make any improvements. There is one positive example of how Pan Am is responding.

[/ QUOTE ]Don't former students have to go through an exit interview with Pan Am? and don't they already get information about what improvements can be made when they're finished?

If not, that's one of the first things I would implement with the current students that are about to finish. Reputation is everything in today's world.

I wouldn't say that Doug made a mistake giving Pan Am an "opportunity" to start doing *right*. He really did scrutinze the class training information for and how Pan Am operates for quite some time. He doesn't necessarily agree with their marketing just as he doesn't agree with DCA's marketing either, but they've been talking to him about future changes and we're waiting to see what happens with that. Albiet, we're hoping it happens soon because if JC starts falling to the credibility wayside because of "verbal deals not kept" then fit will be hitting the shan, so to speak and somebody will get upset.

In my personal opinion (and esp since i'm NOT a pilot), I do think the marketing is the first thing that needs to be updated/corrected/revised, whatever because that's what the freshly minted "wanna be an airline pilot" student see first & foremost and with marketing like that, they get all starry eyed and pulled in like a pyramid scheme. Be true to your school, be true to your marketing principles and your students will come looking for you because your a honest businessman providing an honest service and giving them what they pay for.

Pan Am knows they're in the spotlight here, what we're waiting to see are what changes are implemented in the marketing dept and how quickly will they be implemented. we're watching, no worries about that.
 
Re: A Formal Invite!!

Don't encourage it, make it mandatory.

At any professional job or at any professional training course I've ever taken, an exit interview or even just an exit survey was a mandatory step to leaving and if that survey was negative in any way, I'd get a phone call for an explaination so that they can make things better for the next person/student. To me, them asking me "why" and actually listening to my reasoning was one of the best things I saw - knowing they actually valued my opinion when I'm "leaving" them (or finished with the course)really showed respectability (in a business way)in my eyes.
 
Re: A Formal Invite!!

"Fine... the marketing sucks. If that is the biggest gem of wisdom you can impart from your vast 20 years of experience, then you can keep it."

HAHA....you seem pissed that it´s just your marketing I´m pissed about. Just like DCA...as a professional pilot, I find it insulting to read your marketing. I'm going to post some more on that tomorrow and it will be at the general forum, not here where few people come.

"you would be spending much more time helping the young freshly minted CFI's that visit become better at what they do, rather than spending your time being the litttle "Mr. Watchdog."

If you'd like to check my posting history, you'll see that I comment at many variety of threads here at jetcareers. At the same time, I reserve my best efforts in an attempt to refute, and counter, the misleading advertising of a few of the big academies. Nothing will stop me. I'd like to create a site that refutes the claims of PanAm and DCA, and pay Doug for a banner ad right next to yours.

Anyone interested in helping me?
 
Re: A Formal Invite!!

"I wouldn't say that Doug made a mistake giving Pan Am an "opportunity" to start doing *right*. He really did scrutinze the class training information for and how Pan Am operates for quite some time."

Thanks for your post. I think it explains a bit to me why Doug allowed PanAm´s banner.

He knows about the school and is willing to let their marketing ride for a while because of that. That´s his call, though I disagree with it.

I haven´t been to PanAm and don't really care or see why I should bother. I could easily be PanAm neutral, having never been there. Perhaps these guys haven´t noticed that I´m neutral on ATP and FSI. I´ll never favor big academy, over 61, so it's pointless for me to visit.

I have no reason to cut PanAm ANY slack on their marketing. I can only hope the day comes soon where they either change it, or their banner goes away.
 
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