A Load of BS.

DE727UPS

DE727UPS

Well-Known Member
I was recently challenged, by a PanAm apologist, to find statements in the PanAm ads and marketing that I found to be inaccurate. I've chosen to title this thread, "A load of BS", cause that's what it is....

For the record, I don't believe PanAm deserves to have their banner ads at this site. The following is my proof....

http://www.panamacademy.com/career.asp?ID=155

"The pilots themselves are certain that the airlines will seek to hire our graduates before they’ll look to any other flight school – FASTER & FOR SURE."

This is a load of BS. Where is the proof that PanAm grads are prefered to be hired at an airline? I promise you that UPS could care less. Mesa airlines is listed at this link that they hire PanAm grads "faster and for sure"

One would think Mesa would hire MAPD grads faster and more surely than PanAm grads. After all, that's what MAPD is all about. Does Mesa prefer PanAm grads over MAPD? I don't think so....yet this is in direct contradiction with PanAm marketing. Also, Comair, ASA, and ACA, are partners in the "PanAm...faster and for sure" statement. Funny how these airlines are in the DCA guaranteed interview program?

"The results have been self-evident. Our graduates are highly regarded in the industry and have a record of success that has been virtually unmatched by pilots from anywhere else – FOR SURE."

This is a load of BS. I don't know any PanAm grads who work for UPS. I have friends who are check airmen at Skywest and Mesa. Never once have I heard them claim that PanAm grads do better than anyone else. If PanAm was so great, I think I'd have heard about it.

This is a load of BS.

http://www.panamacademy.com/career.asp?ID=350

"Additionally, below is a collection of links to articles which we feel give the best picture of the "state of the industry". Additional articles will be added periodically."

Funny how their "best picture of the state of the industry" is really super misleading. Hey...PanAm...there is a lot of bad stuff going on in this industry right now !!! It's not all a pretty picture. Perhaps the folks getting into the business would like to have a balanced idea of what's up in the industry? Your "state of the industry news" link....Total BS.....almost made me cry.

This is a load of BS.

http://www.panamacademy.com/career.asp?ID=57

Q: How long will I spend at a ‘regional airline’?

"a common example is about 3 years at a regional airline prior to moving to a major airline."

My friends who are RJ check airmen have been at their regionals for over six years and haven't managed to move on yet. The carrot of 250K a year as a salary is dangled. UPS Capts don't make that much and we are one of the few airlines that haven't taken any cuts....Cut the BS, PanAm...

http://www.panamacademy.com/career.asp?ID=324

Here is where they tout their great placement record for 2005. It includes 4 people. Be your own judge.

Why did I just spend an hour of my life making this post???

1. Lima Charlie asked me to.
2. I think Doug needs to see what kind of BS PanAm markets.
3. I think it's time jetcareers members speak up about what schools should be allowed to advertise at this site. For myself, I nearly puke everytime I see a PanAm banner. So what do you guys think?
 
I appreciate your effort... I agree... some of that stuff could really be toned down, or backed up by some concrete, verifiable proof. Hopefully the people that make the marketing decisions will take your thoughts into account.

Marketing issue aside, I still believe that I received great training, and feel confident about my future.
 
Their ads are shady and have similarities to Delta Connection Academy, but if it keeps the website up and running, not to mention putting a few bucks in Doug's pocket, I think I can just ignore them.

However, I was a little dissapointed to see the members here downplay the academies...however when a young student gets online to get some advice about what school to go to, they'll be hit up with PanAm ads in their face. Kind of an oxymoron, wouldn't you say?

Nontheless, I don't begin at Ari-Ben until the first week in March, so I can't really comment. I will once I progress though.
 
"I agree... some of that stuff could really be toned down"

If it was toned down, I would have no problem with the PanAm banner at this site.

I wouldn't hold my breath, though. I've been complaining about the DCA marketing, and doing battle was some guys over there, for a long time. I have yet to see any changes. There is too much money to be made by misstating, or stretching, the truth.

I know I'm old school....but I just hate to see something that should be sacred, like teaching people how to fly airplanes, exposed to typical corporate american marketing propaganda BS.....
 
well I guess I'll pipe in. I flight instruct with about 4 guys and gals that went to pan-am. And they are all super awesome people, but they all kinda feel like pan-am promised them the moon, and took their money. Something isn't getting delievered because I have the same job as them and it ain't at no airline. Am I banned now?
 
"but if it keeps the website up and running, not to mention putting a few bucks in Doug's pocket, I think I can just ignore them."

I could too. But I'm not going to shut up until I'm told to by da man himself. It's a call only Doug can make. Somewhere, a line in the sand has to be drawn for this site to maintain it's balance between respectability, if you will, and need for income. The PanAm marketing crosses my line, as does DCA's. But it's not my line to draw and I respect the call of the one who's it is.
 
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"but if it keeps the website up and running, not to mention putting a few bucks in Doug's pocket, I think I can just ignore them."

I could too. But I'm not going to shut up until I'm told to by da man himself. It's a call only Doug can make. Somewhere, a line in the sand has to be drawn for this site to maintain it's balance between respectability, if you will, and need for income. The PanAm marketing crosses my line, as does DCA's. But it's not my line to draw and I respect the call of the one who's it is.

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DE... If it makes you feel any better, the concerns and opinions that have been shared on this website have made it to the top of the Pan Am food chain. From what I hear, major steps are being taken to improve the public perception of Pan Am. I don't have any specifics, but I do know that things are changing for the better, with respect to the students, or better yet the customer.
 
Then the first thing they need to do is take it off of their adds. They should look like ATp/Skymates/Ari-Ben....and say..

"Getting an airline job is hard, but if you work hard enough, you could get there. There are no guarentees. We've got multi time for cheap, so come here if you want"

not..

"The airlines want our graduates now!"

It's nice to hear that some steps are being taken to 'tone it down'.
 
I would seriously doubt that anyone has really taken the time to hold Pan Am accountable to their marketing practices. I have always liked the concept of "under promising, and over producing". It will be interesting to see how the balance is maintained between putting our best "foot" forward, and keeping it "real".
 
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I would seriously doubt that anyone has really taken the time to hold Pan Am accountable to their marketing practices. I have always liked the concept of "under promising, and over producing". It will be interesting to see how the balance is maintained between putting our best "foot" forward, and keeping it "real".

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Agree. Keep in mind LC, like DE727, I have no beef with PanAm IPs, students, their training quality, etc, etc. From what I've seen of that......the service from the lower-echelon worker bees......it all appears to be no better or worse, in any major ways, from any other academy/FBO or any other flight training operation. My beef is simply with the advertising. If Pan Am (along with other flight academies, to be fair) adjusted the glossy ads to either not make or give the perception of false promises (worst case); or outright gave the straight skinny of "you'll get high quality training here and it will cost $XXX, but just know that this industry is, by nature, very unpredictable. We can't make you any promises, but we can provide the bet guidance we can in regards to your aviation future....." (best case), then I'd have no problem with the upper management at these places. But I want it to be clear that that's where my beef is, not with the lower echelons.
 
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Q: How long will I spend at a ‘regional airline’?

"a common example is about 3 years at a regional airline prior to moving to a major airline."

[/ QUOTE ]

Common for whom? Most regionals have FOs hoping to UPGRADE in that short amount of time. I think you'd be hard pressed to a) find a legacy hiring people right now and b) find a qualified candidate that has ONLY been at his regional for 3 years. I think the main problem is Pan Am hasn't bothered to update its marketing in about 7 years based on their claims.
 
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Q: How long will I spend at a ‘regional airline’?

"a common example is about 3 years at a regional airline prior to moving to a major airline."

[/ QUOTE ]

Common for whom? Most regionals have FOs hoping to UPGRADE in that short amount of time. I think you'd be hard pressed to a) find a legacy hiring people right now and b) find a qualified candidate that has ONLY been at his regional for 3 years. I think the main problem is Pan Am hasn't bothered to update its marketing in about 7 years based on their claims.

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You have a very good point Kell... Many of their stats could be a number of years old. This industry has changed quite a bit in the past few years. Pan Am most definitely needs to add some reality to their ads. I think its okay to optimistic, but there needs to be a balance.
 
Well, my theory is this. It's a "free form" website as people are absolutely free to speak their opinion regardless of any institution's sponsorship status of jetcareers. If they can't take the heat and step up to answer constructive criticism, chances are they'll get pissed, drop ads and "ad natural selection" takes place.

Ads are a necessary evil and have been since the traffic shot thru the roof as well did hosting and bandwidth charges. I wouldn't mind having the option of doing it ad-free, but things like NetworkJC and other programs would have to go to the financial backburner.

The second option is a subscription service which isn't a viable alternative because, quite frankly, people wouldn't pay it. How many people are paying members of Airliners.net or v1rotate.com? Not I!

Before anyone says, "Hey! I've got some server space to loan ya!", unless you can give me 24/7 tech support, at least 130Gb bandwidth/month, php, MySQL, Apache and at least 512Mb's of RAM on a dedicated server, it's going to as well as Ashlee Simpson does when she grabs the microphone and actually tries to sing.

Crash... medic!!

My priorties are such:

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1. Honesty. Straight up. A free-flow exhcange of information and experience. The good, the bad and the ugly. "Keep it real, yo" as sometimes they say down at my barber shop on Broadway avenue in south PHX.

-- Got questions? Throw them at us.
-- Got answers? Throw them at us.
-- Got a beef? Speak up!
-- Got answers for a beef? Speak up!


2. Keeping the website entertaining. You can't teach and try to make a difference for the next generation of pilots if "the aero-moose lodge" is no fun to go to (dare I mention the "other" site because then the webmaster will show up and want to start another pissing match)

3. Keep the power cord and T-1 line connected to the server at the Hostway server control center.

4. When in doubt, remember how priority #1 keeps JC "#1", which affects #3 as traffic increases but #2 is enough to keep me from pulling my hair out.

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I screen potential advertisers. Don't believe me? That's fine, but if anyone thinks for a second that I'm going to prioritize #3 over #1, you're out of your ever loving mind. Otherwise, there'd be a lot more advertisers on Jetcareers.

Nine years of blood, sweat and grief building the site to throw it all away for some cash, riiiiight! Heck, I even wrecked opportunity for (as heard on "Seinfeld") "Ya know Jerry, yadda yadda yadda" when I was up late working on the website, creating material or answering posts.

Now that they're defunct, I don't mind saying this, but ATA contiuously courted Jetcareers to run ads, starting back when I first started the banner advertising program and especially right before they went belly up (trying to fatten the bank before they skipped town). Didn't pass the smell test on a lot of different levels and it was all about #1 over #3.

Well, I'd ramble on more, but they're going to cancel my jumpseat if I'm not up there in another five minutes then I'm stuck at unibase alpha tangle lima for the night and Mrs. Taylor's not gonna be happy!
 
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"Keep it real, yo" as sometimes they say down at my barber shop on Broadway avenue in south PHX.

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Will they cut my mop of hair there?
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"Well, my theory is this. It's a "free form" website as people are absolutely free to speak their opinion regardless of any institution's sponsorship status of jetcareers. If they can't take the heat and step up to answer constructive criticism, chances are they'll get pissed, drop ads and "ad natural selection" takes place."

I hope your right and I hope the PanAm ads disappear, one way or another. But if I was PanAm, I wouldn't worry about anything negative on the forums. How many would come here and just click on the banner without going to the forums. Have you seen some of the stuff they say when you click on that banner?

Seriously, I think if you're gonna accept PanAm, you might as well accept DCA, based on marketing alone. Maybe you have other reasons for thinking PanAm's okay but from my standpoint, I don't see the difference.

"The second option is a subscription service which isn't a viable alternative"

I agree. I'd rather see jetcareers accept the PanAm and DCA misinformation before this site went to subscription. That would be a disaster.....

Maybe we should accept DCA and PanAm and draw a new line in the sand at Gulfstream/TAB?
 
Can't please 'em all, Don!
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But if we went to a "tribunal" of sorts where we had a large selection of interested advertisers willing to sign at market rates and we could enter a House of Parliament style discussion, it'd be optimum.

Seriously, if you guys would like to put me into contact with a steady stream of advertisers that see value in internet advertising (and don't write heated letters about how they only pay $20/mo at some one-page site), people universally feel warm & fuzzy about, by all means have them contact advertising@jetcareers.com
 
Fair enough. We agree to disagree. I think this site just took a big step backwards...but thanks for making the call.

And that's all I have to say about that.....
 
That's a pretty strong statement.

Now a "big step backwards" would be something like me dimissing the value of FBO's, mom 'n pop flight schools and strictly endorsing university-style programs and large academy pilot mills because that's the only way to find success. Seriously, if more FBO's, mom 'n pop ops and such would show interest in advertising, that would be fantastic.

I wrote a pretty glowing (and free) review of Pan Am during the summer of 2001, after which, in my opinion, they dropped the ball on some issues so I canned it. I think they made changes to get their crap together and are trying to restart a dialog and yes, they've got marketing issues and there are actually things going on behind the scenes to rectify that.

Marketing at any firm has the turn radius of a loaded Mack truck driving 100 mph on wet sand. If they're not being honest and frank about those discussions and the changes that they've made, well, things will get nasty.

It's better the free, unimpeded flow of information happen here on a site where I'm going to prioritize my user's ability and responsibility to speak freely rather than anywhere else where a webmaster is urinating in his pants over potential lost ad revenue. I'm not sure where else on the internet anyone would be able to see a similar conversation take place between a webmaster, a respected user and both fans and foes of a paying advertiser.

I've got to toot my own horn, that's pretty cool.

This decision to give them a shot wasn't made over a weekend, the whole process started several months ago and all of my advertisers are always on "JC double-secret probation".
 
Re: A Formal Invite!!

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I respect your decision, though I disagree with it.

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I would like to cordially invite DE727UPS to visit the Deer Valley campus of Pan Am International Flight Academy, on a date and time of his choosing.

Let's put an end to this banter once and for all. For all the time that has been spent on this website, you must have the free time to take a short 2 hour flight down to Arizona and get some sunshine. (Albeit, it is pouring outside right now!)

I am sure that the people in charge of marketing would be happy to sit down with you and answer your questions about why they do the things that they do, the changes that are coming, and whatever else is on your mind. You could visit with current students of your choosing. You could sit through one of our ground schools. The options are endless!!! Heck, if you golf, bring the clubs and we can take in a round!!

What do you think?
 
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