A learning experience in IMC / Bonanza
- Thread starter Nark
- Start date
Speedbird172
Well-Known Member
Re: A learning expirience in IMC.
Wow, those guys are damn lucky to be alive. I only hope for their sake that they realize that and learn from it before it's too late.
Wow, those guys are damn lucky to be alive. I only hope for their sake that they realize that and learn from it before it's too late.
The only question I have is what is wrong with people - exact opposite of airmanship and very lucky to be alive!
Xcaliber
El Chupacabra
Re: A learning expirience in IMC.
Learn from that? That's not a "learn from" mistake. That's a your-ass-is-fired, license-revoked, never-allowed-to-touch-a-piece-of-machinery-larger-or-more-dangerous-than-a-urinal-ever-again mistake. Seriously, that guy should never be allowed to touch an aircraft again in his life. There is NO excuse for something like that.
Learn from that? That's not a "learn from" mistake. That's a your-ass-is-fired, license-revoked, never-allowed-to-touch-a-piece-of-machinery-larger-or-more-dangerous-than-a-urinal-ever-again mistake. Seriously, that guy should never be allowed to touch an aircraft again in his life. There is NO excuse for something like that.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
Re: A learning expirience in IMC.
Says the guy whose probably never flown in areas with extensive class G. Hell, the guy might have been legally flying IFR in class g without a clearance but became disoriented. We don't know. All we know is what we see, and it ain't pretty. I'd be willing to bet that the guy learned something, and won't make the same mistake twice. Dumb move on his part, but he certainly won't do it again.
Says the guy whose probably never flown in areas with extensive class G. Hell, the guy might have been legally flying IFR in class g without a clearance but became disoriented. We don't know. All we know is what we see, and it ain't pretty. I'd be willing to bet that the guy learned something, and won't make the same mistake twice. Dumb move on his part, but he certainly won't do it again.
Re: A learning expirience in IMC.
2. If he was IFR without a clearance in class G airspace, he clearly wasn't maintaining legal IFR minimum altitudes.
3. He shouldn't be allowed to make the same mistake again. I agree with the nothing bigger than a urinal idea. He doesn't get a chance to prove he learned something. He had his chance and blew it.
4. Take the "I'd put my family in a plane with him" test. Would you?
-mini
Agreed. 100%
1. No matter how you try to "alaska bush pilot spin" this, it ain't gonna work. Careless is careless whether it's in the lower 48 or up there in Alaska which, believe it or not, is not some 4th dimension.
2. If he was IFR without a clearance in class G airspace, he clearly wasn't maintaining legal IFR minimum altitudes.
3. He shouldn't be allowed to make the same mistake again. I agree with the nothing bigger than a urinal idea. He doesn't get a chance to prove he learned something. He had his chance and blew it.
4. Take the "I'd put my family in a plane with him" test. Would you?
-mini
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
Re: A learning expirience in IMC.
I'm not trying to spin it, I'm just saying we don't know enough about what went on. Good thing the guy is alive. I wouldn't do this kind of thing in a million years, you don't have any options if anything goes wrong, and your margin of error is too small. VFR through IMC is one of the biggest killers of pilots bar-none. No sense in it, but we don't know enough about what was going on to say, "hey now that guys a piss-pilot." My biggest problem with the guy is that he continued up the valley when he went IMC. Number one rule of mountain flying, avoid going towards rising terrain.
I also can't tell if the guy was solid IMC or was flying a long in a mile and clear of clouds because, 1, the camera doesn't look at the ground too much, and 2 the quality isn't exactly good. Do I believe that he was legal. No, not really. But we don't know enough about what's going on in this video to say one way or another. Stupid move on his part. Bad idea, but I'm sure he learned his lesson, hell, the guy could have been a 100hr private pilot. He does something like that again, yeah sure, pull his certs and give him a key to the women's restroom, but everybody makes mistakes (sometimes you make really really big ones) and everybody does stupid things.
Reminds me of the time when a friend of mine had about 300TT, and was flying from MRI-->GAL-->DCK, and was in the hills in crap weather by himself, and he missed the turn up the right valley, turned at the valley past it. Now, he didn't come that close, in fact, he realized that he had screwed the pooch early enough to not smack the end of the box canyon, but he had to make a really really tight turn with full flaps to get out. He scared the hell out of himself and learned something incredibly important. Somethings are intolerable, yes, if the guy in the video were my employee, he'd be fired, if I were the local FSDO, I'd be playing the suspension and mandatory retraining game. But we don't know enough about the video to know what we're looking at. Bad airmanship, yes. Not a fixable problem, no.
I'm not trying to spin it, I'm just saying we don't know enough about what went on. Good thing the guy is alive. I wouldn't do this kind of thing in a million years, you don't have any options if anything goes wrong, and your margin of error is too small. VFR through IMC is one of the biggest killers of pilots bar-none. No sense in it, but we don't know enough about what was going on to say, "hey now that guys a piss-pilot." My biggest problem with the guy is that he continued up the valley when he went IMC. Number one rule of mountain flying, avoid going towards rising terrain.
I also can't tell if the guy was solid IMC or was flying a long in a mile and clear of clouds because, 1, the camera doesn't look at the ground too much, and 2 the quality isn't exactly good. Do I believe that he was legal. No, not really. But we don't know enough about what's going on in this video to say one way or another. Stupid move on his part. Bad idea, but I'm sure he learned his lesson, hell, the guy could have been a 100hr private pilot. He does something like that again, yeah sure, pull his certs and give him a key to the women's restroom, but everybody makes mistakes (sometimes you make really really big ones) and everybody does stupid things.
Reminds me of the time when a friend of mine had about 300TT, and was flying from MRI-->GAL-->DCK, and was in the hills in crap weather by himself, and he missed the turn up the right valley, turned at the valley past it. Now, he didn't come that close, in fact, he realized that he had screwed the pooch early enough to not smack the end of the box canyon, but he had to make a really really tight turn with full flaps to get out. He scared the hell out of himself and learned something incredibly important. Somethings are intolerable, yes, if the guy in the video were my employee, he'd be fired, if I were the local FSDO, I'd be playing the suspension and mandatory retraining game. But we don't know enough about the video to know what we're looking at. Bad airmanship, yes. Not a fixable problem, no.
Murdoughnut
Well sized member
Re: A learning expirience in IMC.
That's seriously some scary @$#!
That's seriously some scary @$#!
Xcaliber
El Chupacabra
Re: A learning expirience in IMC.
Actually, I have. I won't pretend that I have a lot of experience flying in areas with lot's of G, but certainly far more than most other pilots at my hour level, and probably more than many well over me. I've been in a couple IMC-without-a-clearance-in-mountainous-terrain situations in class G before, but NEVER when we didn't know that we had legal terrain clearance at all times.
As minitour has already pointed out, even if he was in that sort of situation, he obviously didn't maintain his terrain clearance. I don't think the "disoriented" claim has any merit either, as it looks like he's got a 530/430 stack along with GDU 370 in there, at least two of which are in map mode. Even the video points out that he continued VFR into IMC, up a canyon. Just stupid.
While I agree that most situations and mistakes can be retrained or learned from, this seems to be a case of a pilot putting himself in a situation with incredibly predictable consequences. Unless there is some extremely relevant piece of circumstantial information we're missing, the pilot purposefully disregarded all training and common sense. I believe that such a major display of abhorrent ADM warrants the permanent revocation of this guy's certificate.
"Operating an aircraft in a careless or reckless manner so as to endanger the life or property of another." This is a no-brainer. We'll have to see what the FAA does now.
Actually, I have. I won't pretend that I have a lot of experience flying in areas with lot's of G, but certainly far more than most other pilots at my hour level, and probably more than many well over me. I've been in a couple IMC-without-a-clearance-in-mountainous-terrain situations in class G before, but NEVER when we didn't know that we had legal terrain clearance at all times.
As minitour has already pointed out, even if he was in that sort of situation, he obviously didn't maintain his terrain clearance. I don't think the "disoriented" claim has any merit either, as it looks like he's got a 530/430 stack along with GDU 370 in there, at least two of which are in map mode. Even the video points out that he continued VFR into IMC, up a canyon. Just stupid.
While I agree that most situations and mistakes can be retrained or learned from, this seems to be a case of a pilot putting himself in a situation with incredibly predictable consequences. Unless there is some extremely relevant piece of circumstantial information we're missing, the pilot purposefully disregarded all training and common sense. I believe that such a major display of abhorrent ADM warrants the permanent revocation of this guy's certificate.
"Operating an aircraft in a careless or reckless manner so as to endanger the life or property of another." This is a no-brainer. We'll have to see what the FAA does now.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
Re: A learning expirience in IMC.
I agree with this, and sorry then for saying you weren't experienced in such operations. That being said, that there may be circumstantial information missing as to why this happened.
Most pilots don't just continue VFR through IMC. There has to be a reason. If it was get-there-itis then yeah, certs go bye-bye. However, we just don't know. In all probability you are right, and terrible CRM/ADM was demonstrated, but we don't know. Even if it was really really bad airmanship, isn't that what training is for? We can fix even the most broken pilot with dual given, and retraining. Just my opinion. Don't write the guy off yet.
I agree with this, and sorry then for saying you weren't experienced in such operations. That being said, that there may be circumstantial information missing as to why this happened.
Most pilots don't just continue VFR through IMC. There has to be a reason. If it was get-there-itis then yeah, certs go bye-bye. However, we just don't know. In all probability you are right, and terrible CRM/ADM was demonstrated, but we don't know. Even if it was really really bad airmanship, isn't that what training is for? We can fix even the most broken pilot with dual given, and retraining. Just my opinion. Don't write the guy off yet.
subpilot
Squawking 7600
Prodrive555
Well-Known Member
Re: A learning expirience in IMC.
Comments on another site based on that registration say it was this guy:
http://www.bruceellison.com/home.htm
If you look at his profile and aircraft pics, it's a match.
Comments on another site based on that registration say it was this guy:
http://www.bruceellison.com/home.htm
If you look at his profile and aircraft pics, it's a match.
