A flight mistake with flaps

N

N99999

New Member
I've heard it said that every pilot's first thousand hours of flying are filled with dumb pilot tricks, and if any pilot tells you otherwise, he's not to be trusted. I made one such mistake tonight. I wanted to post it here so as to gain some help in understanding what I did, and to pass the information on as something to think about for those of you who've never made this mistake.

I flew a Piper Archer tonight. I had to make a tight base-final turn due to airspace restrictions that prevented me from making a long final approach. The approach is over water with a busy industrial district close by; the winds are always real challenging at this airport.

Somehow, with the flap lever in that archer, I ended up with two notches of flaps in where I was supposed to only have one. I was just barely slow enough for the first notch and decided that, since things weren't setting up right to make a go-around. I was still too fast for 2 notches of flaps, so I didn't add any power, but instead, pulled the flaps up. Flaps on Archers, being mechanically connected to a handle, as opposed to electric motors, can be added and removed suddely. I'm guessing this is why other small planes have the motors. At this point, I felt the plane start to sink quickly and the houses in the neighborhood below started getting bigger -- something I hadn't expected given my indicated airspeed. My instinct was to pull back on the yoke, but I followed my understanding and treated it like a stall recovery, pointing the nose down with full power and pitching into a positive rate of climb, making a successful go-around and returning to land, though I landed flat and hard.
 
N99999 said:
To long to quote...
Click to expand...

My scariest moment as an instructor was a couple months ago when a student almost killed himself on his first solo. He decided to do a go-around w/o adding any power but dumping all flaps and pitching plus +7 for Vy. (This was in an Archer BTW)

Vfe be damned at that point. Go-Arounds do not need to be rushed. Take your time and fly the airplane. If you panic you die, fall back on your training.

Edit: Also I don't ever remember having two flap speeds in the Archer. Maybe an older model?
 
N99999 said:
I was still too fast for 2 notches of flaps, so I didn't add any power, but instead, pulled the flaps up. Flaps on Archers, being mechanically connected to a handle, as opposed to electric motors, can be added and removed suddely. I'm guessing this is why other small planes have the motors. At this point, I felt the plane start to sink quickly and the houses in the neighborhood below started getting bigger -- something I hadn't expected given my indicated airspeed.
Click to expand...

You began sinking because you suddenly lost lift from retracting the flaps suddenly. This will happen regardless of your airspeed. Retract the flaps more slowly in the future and you'll be fine.

N99999 said:
My instinct was to pull back on the yoke, but I followed my understanding and treated it like a stall recovery, pointing the nose down with full power and pitching into a positive rate of climb,
Click to expand...

Your instinct to pull back was actually correct. You had a relatively high airspeed, therefore you had a relatively low angle of attack. You were nowhere close to the critical angle of attack that would cause a stall. Thus, you could have abruptly pulled back and been just fine (within reason, of course...you don't want to pull back as hard as possible and cause an accelerated stall).

Of course, pitching down and adding power isn't necessarily a dangerous response. It obviously worked well for you. But it isn't very efficient, nor was it needed in this case.

N99999 said:
making a successful go-around and returning to land, though I landed flat and hard.
Click to expand...

Making a go around is (almost) never a bad choice. So good job on that decision.

Just remember that your landing is not based on any previous experience from the flight. The fact that you landed flat and hard has nothing to do with making a go around the previous time around the pattern. You can make a good (or bad) landing no matter what happened five minutes ago.
 
jrh said:
Your instinct to pull back was actually correct. You had a relatively high airspeed, therefore you had a relatively low angle of attack. You were nowhere close to the critical angle of attack that would cause a stall. Thus, you could have abruptly pulled back and been just fine (within reason, of course...you don't want to pull back as hard as possible and cause an accelerated stall).

Of course, pitching down and adding power isn't necessarily a dangerous response. It obviously worked well for you. But it isn't very efficient, nor was it needed in this case.
Click to expand...

PIC decision. If he saw that he was approaching a stall, he SHOULD initiate a stall recovery. Easier to screw up assuming you can pull back and start a climb then going through a stall recovery. With that said, a pilot's mind should always be on his air speed and altitude. There is danger in getting closer to the ground then necessary.
 
I've always really like the mechanical flaps... especially on the older 182s... if you had an engine out, you could really control what was going on (within reason) with that handle... instantly... especially liked Cessna's 40 degrees back then.

Guess I'm probably in the minority.. but I HATE seeing guys doing long base/finals in singles.... it's always low, slow, dragging it in...
 
jrh said:
Your instinct to pull back was actually correct. You had a relatively high airspeed, therefore you had a relatively low angle of attack. You were nowhere close to the critical angle of attack that would cause a stall. Thus, you could have abruptly pulled back and been just fine (within reason, of course...you don't want to pull back as hard as possible and cause an accelerated stall).
Click to expand...

:yeahthat:
 
ryan1234 said:
I've always really like the mechanical flaps... especially on the older 182s... if you had an engine out, you could really control what was going on (within reason) with that handle... instantly... especially liked Cessna's 40 degrees back then.

Guess I'm probably in the minority.. but I HATE seeing guys doing long base/finals in singles.... it's always low, slow, dragging it in...
Click to expand...

It's not exactly a "long" base-final at this airport; there's airspace less than a mile from the end of that runway. This was just one of those things that happened quickly and unexpectedly; it was a good reminder to me of how quickly things can start to happen and develop when they start to go wrong. Aside from a little pattern work I did a few days ago, it'd been a couple months since I'd flown. I'm going back to my rule of 5-10 hours minimum/month to stay proficient.
 
I believe once you are in the white arc (blw 102KIAS for the archer I flew) then you are good to go - so if you were slow enough for one notch, then you were slow enough for the second. Operating tips in the info manual do suggest having the airplane at slower speeds to reduce operating load on the flaps but make no airspeed suggestions for incremental flap positions.

I think making the choice to go around when you were uncomfortable with the approach is a very good one, although the execution maybe not so great!! I would suggest you make yourself familiar with the operating limitations of the aircraft for future reference.
 
I think I wouldn't have messed with the flaps, just make power changes as needed and pitch for airspeed. I have even done the traffic pattern with full flaps in a Cessna, not a big deal. It just requires a lot more power and some of the visual references look a little different (but not much). Sometimes those stupid motors burn out... which is why manual flaps are nice :)
 
Nicely done, you realized the situation wasn't as it should be and you acted. Thanks for sharing so us other low timers can learn from your experience.
 
I had a student that would retract all flaps on a go around before even touching the throttle. That was no fun. Especially when you are ten feet above the runway with the end of the runway approaching.
 
[FONT=&quot]This just in!
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Thu 6/24/2010 7:31 PM
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]What's all the flap about?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Notice Number: NOTC2324[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Never retract the flaps to correct for undershooting an approach since this will suddenly decrease the lift and cause the airplane to sink even more rapidly.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This notice is being sent to you because you selected "General Information" in your preferences on FAASafety.gov. If you wish to adjust your selections, log into https://www.faasafety.gov/Users/pub/preferences.aspx where you can update your preferences.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The new WINGS–Pilot Proficiency Program is great! Check it out now![/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
 
fholbert said:
[FONT=&quot]Never retract the flaps to correct for undershooting an approach since this will suddenly decrease the lift and cause the airplane to sink even more rapidly.
[/FONT]
Click to expand...

That's in the Airplane Flying Handbook and I think the absoluteness of the statement is a great error. Sometimes, raising the flaps is a very excellent thing to do when undershooting...just make sure you increase your AoA at the same time and you won't sink and you'll get a much better glide ratio.
 
ryan1234 said:
I've always really like the mechanical flaps... especially on the older 182s... if you had an engine out, you could really control what was going on (within reason) with that handle... instantly... especially liked Cessna's 40 degrees back then.

Guess I'm probably in the minority.. but I HATE seeing guys doing long base/finals in singles.... it's always low, slow, dragging it in...
Click to expand...


Heck yes! I fly one of those 1957 182's right now, love the mechanical flaps...40 degrees makes for one heck of an air brake :)
 
Maurus said:
I had a student that would retract all flaps on a go around before even touching the throttle. That was no fun. Especially when you are ten feet above the runway with the end of the runway approaching.
Click to expand...

THIS!

The exact same thing happened to me while flying with a friend in an older 172 with Johnson Bar mechanical flaps. We touch down, take off again, he forgets to put in full power and then dumps all the flaps at once.

We dropped about 20 ft, and we were about 21 ft off the ground. :banghead:

The moral of the story is, retract your flaps incrementally!!!
 
Somewhat related......maybe not.....but early in my flying career, I was doing some touch and goes at night down at ORH in a 172 that still had the 40 degree flaps. On one of the goes, I forgot to retract the flaps. I was waiting for 65 to rotate, and all of a sudden the airplane just lifts off the runway like an elevator. I had no idea what was going on, then I looked over at the flap gauge! I brought them up a little at a time as I accelerated, and when I got to 10 or so I just left them and climbed up to pattern altitude. It was pretty exciting, but I am glad I had the wherewithal to not bring them up all at once.
 
tgrayson said:
That's in the Airplane Flying Handbook and I think the absoluteness of the statement is a great error. Sometimes, raising the flaps is a very excellent thing to do when undershooting...just make sure you increase your AoA at the same time and you won't sink and you'll get a much better glide ratio.
Click to expand...

:yeahthat:

I can disprove that AFH statement with one example: I've never found a manufacturer checklist that calls for extending flaps immediately after engine failure. Flaps almost universally *decrease* glide range. Therefore, logic would dictate that the absence of flaps would increase glide range, relatively speaking.



If an airplane is gliding 5 feet above the ground with full flaps extended, retracting the flaps will probably cause the airplane to sink in to the ground, thus decreasing glide range.

If an airplane is gliding 5000 feet above the ground with full flaps extended, retracting the flaps will reduce drag and increase glide range.

There must be some sort of "break even" point above the ground from which it's better to retract flaps to increase overall gliding distance. What that altitude is, I have no idea.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top