A Bad Time for a Career Change?

jtrain609 said:
12 hour days?

Bro's right, we'll work 14-16 hour days and not think about it. To have a 12 hour duty day, and only be paid for 4 hours of that is fairly standard at my base (of course the lines have been going down the crapper for years now). I WISH I could work 12 billable hours in a day, I'd be making some cash money!

$19,000 a year + being home 50 hours in 14 days = this isn't a career, it's a dead end job.
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Not that I doubt what you are saying, but if it is so bad, why are you still there? From reading your posts you are very intelligent and would have no problem finding another job. What is it that keeps you there? Serious question.

I am just curious, I have a potential opportunity to work for a great company. It would delay my flying for hire, but would allow me to pay as I go and save some money as well. I am debating between working full time and flying on the side and take a loan out and flying full time to get into the right seat quicker, after CFI'ing.

I know most people are against taking out loans. I just really do not wish to go back to a cube. Motivation would be no problem, I would just put a few pictures of planes up and know I am working towards something I want. But a loan would get me to that place faster. But would also get me a nice 30k loan with a variable apr over 15 years.


One note on the lawyer. He has been working this way for over 10 years. He just moved to a new firm, at a higher position, more responsibility and more work. Yes, he does make a very good living, better than any first year FO or even 5th year CA at a regional. However, all he knows is the inside of his office, the inside of his car and the same road he drives every day to and from work. He rarely has a day off, never really goes anywhere and all that money go towards nothing because he has no time to spend it.

I know you can say all you know is the inside of a cockpit, the inside of a hotel room and the airport. But, you are also traveling around the country, working your way to to a better line, with more time off and better pay. Eventually the possibility of working for a Major, flying across the ocean or around the America's, meeting new people, seeing new places, having new experiences. He gets a bigger office, a bigger car and a bigger bank account but the same commute and same lack of adventure.
 
A few things.

1. I'm working on it, trust me.

2. Traveling around the country? I've got a 14 hour airport overnight down south tomorrow, I'll see the airport hotel, get 8 hours of sleep, get up and go somewhere else. You don't see a ton of the local area depending on your overnight.

3. Better line? If by better line, you mean commuting to reserve for 10 months and then getting furloughed, then yes.

Sorry guys, I know you don't like to hear about it, but to be honest I don't really care. I haven't been outside of my crashpad for more than 24 hours in the last 14 days, and it's starting to feel like a jail cell right now.
 
Simply finding another job is easier said than done. Even though I am not an aviation pro I am ready to leave my job for something closer to home and other reasons. Now in todays market I wish it were as easy as getting another job, but to keep the bills paid and keep the family QOL up staying put is the sacrifice I have to make or now. In short, yes you can complain about your job but people don't realize that getting another job isn't as easy as it is thrown around on here. Let clarify that the purpose of that is to keep QOL going up or sideways a little but not going down. QOL isn't just about money, it can also mean happiness, less stress, etc.
 
Good luck jtrain, I hope it works out for you. You stepped into the game at a bad time, as did the rest of us hired on in the past 10 years I think.
 
Naw you know I think some of us REALLY nailed it. You got hired at CAL 2.5 years ago? You're set, you could hold captain right now! You got hired at Delta when peanuckleCRJ did? You're set for life. You got hired at Northwest in the last year? Well, you're probably gonna lose your job.

Now those of us that got to the regionals in the last year? Well, we're all completely hosed.
 
Matt13C said:
Not that I doubt what you are saying, but if it is so bad, why are you still there? From reading your posts you are very intelligent and would have no problem finding another job. What is it that keeps you there? Serious question.

I am just curious, I have a potential opportunity to work for a great company. It would delay my flying for hire, but would allow me to pay as I go and save some money as well. I am debating between working full time and flying on the side and take a loan out and flying full time to get into the right seat quicker, after CFI'ing.

I know most people are against taking out loans. I just really do not wish to go back to a cube. Motivation would be no problem, I would just put a few pictures of planes up and know I am working towards something I want. But a loan would get me to that place faster. But would also get me a nice 30k loan with a variable apr over 15 years.


One note on the lawyer. He has been working this way for over 10 years. He just moved to a new firm, at a higher position, more responsibility and more work. Yes, he does make a very good living, better than any first year FO or even 5th year CA at a regional. However, all he knows is the inside of his office, the inside of his car and the same road he drives every day to and from work. He rarely has a day off, never really goes anywhere and all that money go towards nothing because he has no time to spend it.

I know you can say all you know is the inside of a cockpit, the inside of a hotel room and the airport. But, you are also traveling around the country, working your way to to a better line, with more time off and better pay. Eventually the possibility of working for a Major, flying across the ocean or around the America's, meeting new people, seeing new places, having new experiences. He gets a bigger office, a bigger car and a bigger bank account but the same commute and same lack of adventure.
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I understand what you are saying ,and this was a very good post. However, practicing law can be very rewarding. My wife does it, and she loves the challenge. the only people afraid of "cubicles" are pilots.
 
jtrain609 said:
A few things.

1. I'm working on it, trust me.

2. Traveling around the country? I've got a 14 hour airport overnight down south tomorrow, I'll see the airport hotel, get 8 hours of sleep, get up and go somewhere else. You don't see a ton of the local area depending on your overnight.

3. Better line? If by better line, you mean commuting to reserve for 10 months and then getting furloughed, then yes.

Sorry guys, I know you don't like to hear about it, but to be honest I don't really care. I haven't been outside of my crashpad for more than 24 hours in the last 14 days, and it's starting to feel like a jail cell right now.
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I wish you luck on finding something that makes you happier.

My feeling on this may change, but I sort of like living in hotels and traveling around. I spent about 3 years traveling from Thursday-Sunday 2 weekends a month for 9 months a year playing hockey. Granted, it is nowhere near the level a pilot sees, but it was a taste and I enjoyed it. It may be a much different story not having a whole team to hang out with, but if the captain and FA's are cool, it could be just as fun.

Doesn't holding a line mean not sitting reserve? Having a set schedule? The higher up you get the better routes you get and the more days off?

Also, not to start an argument, but commuting is a choice. You could live in base and spend those days sitting reserve with your family at your own house. Not many occupations offer you you the opportunity to live where you want in the country and sometimes world and fly into work. You can take it as a positive or a negative.

The 10 months to furlough does suck. But in this economy with the unemployment rate jumping a half a percent in a month many people, not just pilots, are facing layoffs.

learflyer said:
I understand what you are saying ,and this was a very good post. However, practicing law can be very rewarding. My wife does it, and she loves the challenge. the only people afraid of "cubicles" are pilots.
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Cubicles do scare me. :D
 
Matt13C said:
I wish you luck on finding something that makes you happier.

My feeling on this may change, but I sort of like living in hotels and traveling around. I spent about 3 years traveling from Thursday-Sunday 2 weekends a month for 9 months a year playing hockey. Granted, it is nowhere near the level a pilot sees, but it was a taste and I enjoyed it. It may be a much different story not having a whole team to hang out with, but if the captain and FA's are cool, it could be just as fun.

Doesn't holding a line mean not sitting reserve? Having a set schedule? The higher up you get the better routes you get and the more days off?

Also, not to start an argument, but commuting is a choice. You could live in base and spend those days sitting reserve with your family at your own house. Not many occupations offer you you the opportunity to live where you want in the country and sometimes world and fly into work. You can take it as a positive or a negative.

The 10 months to furlough does suck. But in this economy with the unemployment rate jumping a half a percent in a month many people, not just pilots, are facing layoffs.



Cubicles do scare me. :D
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Get back with me once you've been doing this for a while, you'll change your tune.

And I should clarify this being flying for a living, not the airline gig.
 
jtrain609 said:
Get back with me once you've been doing this for a while, you'll change your tune.

And I should clarify this being flying for a living, not the airline gig.
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You may be right. I will even allow you a big I told you so if I do. But I won't know until I try and I will never know if I don't try.

Thanks for your perspective. :nana2:
 
jtrain said:
Get back with me once you've been doing this for a while, you'll change your tune.

And I should clarify this being flying for a living, not the airline gig.
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I've had some #($*#(ty days in freight, but I've never woken up and wanted to die rather than go to work. Just something to consider
 
Boris Badenov said:
I've had some #($*#(ty days in freight, but I've never woken up and wanted to die rather than go to work. Just something to consider
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I wouldn't rather die than go to work (here or at the freight company), I sure have wondered what in the world I'm doing with my life.
 
jtrain609 said:
I wouldn't rather die than go to work (here or at the freight company), I sure have wondered what in the world I'm doing with my life.
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I felt the same way when I was getting crap lines at the bottom of the list. I think it's just a reflection of the current climate. With no movement you can be pretty depressed, if upgrades were still running 18 months over there and the majors were still hiring you'd feel completely different even if "the career" hadn't changed.
 
Get back with me once you've been doing this for a while, you'll change your tune.
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I agree with JT on this one.

Don't get me wrong, the people(capts, FA's, etc) we work with are some of the best/dedicated people I've ever worked with and are what make this job great. If someone wants to be a professional pilot I don't discourage it. But, in the same token the industry demands more than it rewards.

If someone is going to make a career change and do it, go for it. I did it and would do it again. But at the same time, I am looking at other options since a furlough looks kinda imminent and the industry is tanking pretty bad I may have no choice...
 
I think most people would rather take the chance, spend the money on training and give it 5 years to see how much progression it provides.

If things aren't to your liking, then at least 20 years from now, you won't have any regrets.
 
wheelsup said:
I felt the same way when I was getting crap lines at the bottom of the list. I think it's just a reflection of the current climate. With no movement you can be pretty depressed, if upgrades were still running 18 months over there and the majors were still hiring you'd feel completely different even if "the career" hadn't changed.
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You know what's most depressing?

Not the idea of losing my job, but the idea of being the plug, commuting to Cleveland to reserve for another year or two with no movement while having zero control of my schedule. Now THAT'S depressing, and incredibly realistic with the view from the bottom of the list.

At this point if I can get a 12 or 18 month COLA I'm going to jump on it.
 
cfii2007 said:
I think most people would rather take the chance, spend the money on training and give it 5 years to see how much progression it provides.

If things aren't to your liking, then at least 20 years from now, you won't have any regrets.
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I think this is very true, and to be honest I wouldn't have done this career any differently than the way I have, though if I had taken the interview offer at Express and got in as like a G78XX life would look a lot better I'm sure.

But that's not the way things worked out, and that's life. To be honest, this whole process has given me a heck of a lot of perspective, and done a ton of positive things for me. But the idea that this is all roses is simply untrue, and I think the ideas of the uninitiated on this career are somewhere between naive and dangerous.
 
jtrain609 said:
I've been home 50 hours in the last 14 days.

Did you figure that into your equation?
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If you been home 50 hours in 14 days, you well exceeded my and every one of my friends making $100k+ in the executive world's time home. Oh, we may sleep in our own bed every night, but that's it. We leave for the office at 6:30am to 7:00am Monday through Friday and do not get home until 9:00pm to 9:30pm at night. We then eat dinner around 10:00pm at night. My friends kids go to bed when they are eating dinner usually and their wife shortly after. So they get to see them for about 10 minutes. And it's always high stress time since things like bills and other personal things take up that 10 minute conversation. Then on either Saturday or Sunday a half day of work is in order. The reality. Want to make $120k or better in the corporate world. You get one day a week off, and that is all. And don't expect to see your family but 2 nights a week.

Oh, and if you are a pilot and commute. And that commute keeps you away from home a couple extra days longer. That's your problem. Move to your home base! Us business exec's do not have the luxury of such an option. If our company says, hey, we need you to relocate from South Carlonia because your position is now going to be in Los Angeles. If you say no, you'll be on the street with no job.

That's all not directed at anyone in paticular. Just stating simple facts I have from personal experience. If I flew 14 days in a row, never to be home once, but got 5-6 days in a row at home with no one at work expecting me to be working from home during that time, I would have doubled my quality of life!!! And so would most senior and above business people.
 
Right...but I'm making $19,000 a year.

And I flew 16 hours last month.

Now at this point, you've already written me off, I'm aware of that; but what I'm trying to pound into your head is that this could happen to you. That's all, just a realiziation that your dream can become a nightmare quickly and everything you're saying goes out the window.

That's all.
 
I sense JTrain's frustration, having sat reserve years ago for what seemed like an eternity.
I think the quality of life issue can't be overlooked. I've missed a lot of birthdays, family gatherings, holidays for this job. Flying mainline our pay is a bit better, but we still have increasingly short overnights, declining hotel quality, company inspired zero morale - same tune, different employer.

Its hard to be enthusiastic or optimist about this industry when with the exception of WN we are all bleeding a slow death.

I was young, single and drilling holes in the sky for the Navy when I last enjoyed this job.
 
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