91 flying and 135 rest.

cmill

cmill

Cold Ass Honky
I know that commercial 91 flying counts towards your flight time limits, but what I cant find is if you take a commercial 91 flight for a different company, does that screw up your 135 rest?

I almost positive the answer is no, but our POI isnt budging, so i need something in writing.

I've tried looking for a LOI, but they all pertain to flight times. Our POI is saying that if you take any commercial flight, even for a different company, then that cant be counted as rest for 135.

IE: My 135 duty day ends at 1600, and I pick up a contract flight that evening, which ends at 0200. POI is saying I'm not legal to go back on 135 duty until 1200.

You guys have any thoughts?
 
Right, the question is if someone does flying on the side for compensation part 91, does that mean that you are no longer in your rest period.

135.267
(d) Each assignment under paragraph (b) of this section must provide for at least 10 consecutive hours of rest during the 24-hour period that precedes the planned completion time of the assignment.

In this case, nothing is being assinged by the operator. The flights that are taking place are outside the scope of 135 operation.
 
Rest is not assigned by the operator. Rest is defined (paraphrased) as not being on duty, and is specific to the pilot.
 
"While particular rest provisions may vary between parts of the FAR, the basic definition of rest used by the agency remains the same. The basic characteristics of rest are:

It is relief from actual work for the air carrier, or present responsibility for such should the occasion arise,
It is determined prospectively
It is a continuous period of time."
(Interpretation 1992-47)


My point is, "rest" is a function of 135, and shouldn't have anything to do with any part 91 flying, or vice versa.
 
I think I'll just leave it alone at this point. My opinion hasn't changed, but I've never yet had to address this particular issue in real life so my opinion is only an opinion. Someone else can address it further.

Maybe I'll learn something new - wouldn't be the first time.
 
I understand where you're coming from, but lets flip it around. Lets say I go off duty from my 135 job. If rest is a function of the pilot, by your reasoning I wouldn't be able to go out and pick up a part 91 contract flight without my required 10 hours of rest.
 
cmill said:
I understand where you're coming from, but lets flip it around. Lets say I go off duty from my 135 job. If rest is a function of the pilot, by your reasoning I wouldn't be able to go out and pick up a part 91 contract flight without my required 10 hours of rest.
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From my understanding Steve is correct. Rest is not company specific. That said, I have no source for this nor have I dealt with it.
If you don't think your POI is right, you can always write these guys. http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/contacts/
 
z987k said:
From my understanding Steve is correct. Rest is not company specific. That said, I have no source for this nor have I dealt with it.
If you don't think your POI is right, you can always write these guys. http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/contacts/
Click to expand...

After digging through tons of LOI's, this one seems appropriate.
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...erpretations/data/interps/2009/Martindell.pdf

The guy asks if "other commercial flying" counts towards 135 flight and duty time limits. They are clear that the the flight time counts, but they make no mention of it affecting rest.
 
We deal with this continually since our company is a mix of 91 and 135 flying. We do not consider a pilot at rest if they are on a part 91 flight, so they cannot be assigned to a 135 flight if they do meet part 135 rest requirements. On the other hand, a pilot can technically fly a 14 hour duty day part 135 and then be assigned to a part 91 flight immediately following that, but we don't hate our pilots. A pilot has to be able to look back and see 10 consecutive hours of rest (free from company constraint) within the last 24 hours. Flying the boss' kids back to their boarding school doesn't constitute rest. So for all the scumbag operators out there, part 91 does not equal rest.
Also remember that flying under part 91 has no rest requirements. Going from 135 directly to 91 is ok (but probably not safe), but going from 91 directly to 135 requires 10consecutive hrs rest within the last 24.
 
cmill said:
IE: My 135 duty day ends at 1600, and I pick up a contract flight that evening, which ends at 0200. POI is saying I'm not legal to go back on 135 duty until 1200.

You guys have any thoughts?
Click to expand...

Is the bolded after 12 or 14 hours of duty to begin with?
 
Pay2 said:
but going from 91 directly to 135 requires 10 consecutive hrs rest within the last 24.
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This is what I'm trying to find. Remember, I'm basically talking about moonlighting for a completely different company. Not scumbag moves like splitting up flights.

z987k said:
Is the bolded after 12 or 14 hours of duty to begin with?
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My duty day is only eight hours.

The reason I'm trying to figure this out is because we use a lot of part time guys. We might need to schedule a guy to pick up a trip at 0600, but his part 91 gig might have him getting in at say, 2200. Everything I've read about rest and duty allows this. It very specifically says "free from the restraint of the carrier."

Try as I might, I can't find anything that says you have to go ten hours from any other commercial flying.

I might have been vague in my first post, but the part 91 flying i'm talking about is in no way related to the 135 operator.
 
Ah, this is different from the usual 91 flight for your company at the end of a 135 assignment. Or if the company airlined you somewhere to work TDY.

I dunno, in my mind it's no different than if you went and worked on lawnmower engines all day, or flight instructed. It's still "rest" to me, but what makes sense, a lot of times doesn't. :)
 
The flight time limits of 14 CFR 121 and 135 are for "all commercial flying," which is why most 121 carriers don't want you accepting outside employment without first okaying it with a flight operations management official.

In my study of (admittedly, 121) rest rules I haven't seen this question directly addressed. (You might not like the answer that you get from the FAA if you ask them, though I don't know how they'd be able to construct an answer to apply to all operators including those not subject to 121 or 135.)

Please note that in the situation that cmill describes, a pilot's certificates could still be violated under 14 CFR 91.13(a) for careless and reckless operation should an incident occur and the pilot was determined to be flying fatigued.
 
All commercial flying outside of your normal 135 duty day isn't rest OR duty. The flight time counts toward your time limits as well. I'll dig it up when I'm not on my phone.
 
This sounds like a double edged sword here. If the 91 flying isn't impacting your 135 rest times, eventually some sketchy operator will figure that out and maximize it to their benefit and have the crew fly their pants off with the attitude of "Well, it is legal so we are going to do it.".
 
CFI A&P said:
This sounds like a double edged sword here. If the 91 flying isn't impacting your 135 rest times, eventually some sketchy operator will figure that out and maximize it to their benefit and have the crew fly their pants off with the attitude of "Well, it is legal so we are going to do it.".
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There's already operators that ignore all the rest rules.
 
z987k said:
There's already operators that ignore all the rest rules.
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and FSDO inspectors who let them get away with it.

24 hour call out is a clear violation of the rest rules, but there are still many operators that require it.
 
USMCmech said:
and FSDO inspectors who let them get away with it.

24 hour call out is a clear violation of the rest rules, but there are still many operators that require it.
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And pilots who will fly for them knowing and willfully violating the rules.
 
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