91.185

exleardriver said:
good argument for always carrying a handheld comm first of all, eh? ;) i'd say that if you missed on the first attempt due to not meeting the landing requirements, you'd miss again. proceed to your filed alternate..the weather is forecast to be better than your destination. atc will be protecting the airspace around you and note that you're routing there via appropriate airways/gps or direct the navaid if within the usable service volume. select the appropriate approach at your alternate, fly it and land. this is a rare occurrence, fortunately, but still no emergency. i wouldn't go below minimums. short of being able to land at the alternate as well (highly improbable), you're required to know the direction to nearest vfr weather. that's why you'll be carrying additional fuel to go beyond your alternate. get to vfr conditions, land and cancel.
Click to expand...

Okay, I agree with what you're saying, but if I had no power except what's in the battery, and I'm not carrying some sort of backup (handheld radio and/or GPS, which I'm a big proponent of), would you chance not even having electrical power to navigate to your alternate? If you lose battery power you're done unless you're extremely good at situational awareness and timing. I don't know about you, but I'd take my chances on going past DA on the ILS. At least you're in somewhat of an approach setup where even if you don't taxi away from the landing you'll most likely walk away from it. You lose electrical and navs in solid IMC, God knows what you're going to hit.
 
Okay, I agree with what you're saying, but if I had no power except what's in the battery
Click to expand...

panjet - we're discussing losing comm only..not a complete electrical system failure. that's a whole other kettle of fish. if i've lost my electrical system and have nothing but battery, i'm going to shed load, squawk 7600 for two minutes and then 7700 and proceed in the magnetic direction of the nearest forecast vfr weather..period. i'm not going to depend upon the load in my battery to navigate enroute and fly an approach, especially if the destination is a couple hours away..beyond the amp hours capacity of my battery. am i going to treat it as an emergency by using 7700? you betcha. i want 'priority handling' in the sense that atc will protect me as 'an aircraft in distress' as i fly in imc towards the nearest vrfr weather. as the electrical and ignition systems are separate, i'll get to it eventually without worry that my engine will stop running. i was required by regs to know its location (nearest vfr wx) when i received my weather briefing..91.103 - the alternative available if the flight cannot be completed as planned. :bandit:
 
I realize that we were discussing lost comms only, but if you read my earlier post you'd notice I acknowledged that with the addition that lost comms aren't usually going to be isolated, which is why I tend to look at this a bit differently than just lost comms.

Ok, so of course I'd go for VFR if it's an option, but it isn't always. I don't know if you've flown in the northwest much, but there are days when the "nearest VFR" is far beyond the range of the electrical or even range of the aircraft (depending on what you're flying).

You said you'd proceed in the magnetic direction of VFR? Flying a Lear that might work, but again, in the NW (or all of the west for that matter), unless you're above the OROCA, there's a lot of really big rocks to hit out here. I'm not going to just aim my plane in a magnetic direction and hope for the best, especially since, like I said VFR conditions aren't always an option.

Now at my level of flying, and no, I'm not a very highly experienced pilot yet, this is what I would do if I lost power in IMC. I'd look at the forecast weather and find the best option available. Then I'd make one call to ATC declaring an emergency, advise them of my intentions and tell them I'd be shutting off my transponder (it uses a ton of power) and radios unless necessary. Then I'd shut off everything except one nav radio to get either to an airport or VFR conditions (if available). ATC can plan traffic based off me as a primary target or using non-radar procedures.

Maybe this isn't what you'd do, but I was taught this method by a very experienced pilot who worked in crappy IMC with inferior equipment for a long time. Then again, I guess many call us crazy for going IMC with anything but two turbine engines anyway. :)
 
exleardriver said:
midlife, i concur on that point as well..solely how i would choose to act in those circumstances, assuming lost comm. fly to destination, miss..fly to alternate, miss (highly improbable)..fly to nearest vfr conditions with my '45' of fuel reserve..not as a directive. there's undoubtedly some aviation legal precedent/interpretation on best course of action.
Click to expand...
Just as an FYI, AFAIK there is no legal precedent or formal interpretation on this one. If there was, someone would have brought it up in the upteen discussions on the subject I've seen through the years.

I have seen FAA Legal interpretations of the "how much fuel" part (it's not just fly "to"; it's also "fly the approach and attempt to land at" both the destination and the alternate and then fly for 45 minutes)
 
PanJet said:
I realize that we were discussing lost comms only, but if you read my earlier post you'd notice I acknowledged that with the addition that lost comms aren't usually going to be isolated, which is why I tend to look at this a bit differently than just lost comms.
Click to expand...
You're right. And the chances are, I think, pretty good that, unless you cause a serious problem, there would be no consequences if you looked at your lost comms as a sign that something is seriously wrong with your electrical system and treated it as an emergency. Heck, I've don that VFR and landed without a clearance at a Class D airport when all runway incursions were being reported to the FSDO. A conversation and a letter from me was the end of it.

But recognize that this is an =academic= discussion of what the rule says and valuable from an understanding standpoint whatever practical reality we =think= it has.

Want some realism? Let's change the scenario - the lost comm has nothing whatsoever to do with your airplane. It's an ATC loss of communication capability in busy airspace. Now what?
 
Ok, so of course I'd go for VFR if it's an option, but it isn't always. I don't know if you've flown in the northwest much, but there are days when the "nearest VFR" is far beyond the range of the electrical or even range of the aircraft (depending on what you're flying).
Click to expand...
okay, another twist..true. in this case for sure there's absolutely no way i'm not flying without a handheld comm and extra batteries.

You said you'd proceed in the magnetic direction of VFR? Flying a Lear that might work, but again, in the NW (or all of the west for that matter), unless you're above the OROCA, there's a lot of really big rocks to hit out here. I'm not going to just aim my plane in a magnetic direction and hope for the best, especially since, like I said VFR conditions aren't always an option.
Click to expand...
i'm assuming g.a. planes and not a lear, fwiw. i expect to be carrying enroute charts, plan to be safely above the oroca if enroute to vfr conditions, which are safely in range. if you're looking for a scenario in which the pilot has no option but to take their chances going below dh/mda, i suppose this pilot's best option is shoot the approach at the destination, miss and proceed to the alternate.

if upon reaching the alternate (and this is back to the scenario where i've only lost all comm and not electrical) i fy the approach and still don't meet the requirements of far 91.175(c), i'd check my fuel status and consider entering a hold after the missed to give the weather perhaps more time to improve unless i have forecasts that indicate that it should actually be deteriorating with time. in that case, with no further fuel reserve and no vfr wx in range, i'm going below dh (assuming a precision approach) now in hopes of landing. i'm also staying generally true to the intents of 91.119 for minimum safe altitude, avoiding undue hazard to persons or property on the surface. i'll likely at least hit the runway, hopefully not a home. :bandit:

Want some realism? Let's change the scenario - the lost comm has nothing whatsoever to do with your airplane. It's an ATC loss of communication capability in busy airspace. Now what?
Click to expand...
midlife...which atc component...a center enroute to my destination or arrival approach control? and are they just too busy to reply or have they lost power?
 
exlear - loss of power - all of them - point it that it's clear that it is not the start of a system emergency on your end and no ATC function can take up tje slack.
 
midlife...okay, that's not a happy prospect...lol. continuing on my merry way as if 'lost comm' on my end would not necessarily seem a good option...i have no protection, as nobody enroute to my destination would either...good possibility of collision somewhere as numerous aircraft converge upon a larger terminal area. if my destination is somewhat 'remote' relatively speaking, and i'm 'almost there' i'd likely continue per 'lost comm'. were it to happen early in my trip, it might be a while before i'd even realize there were a system-wide problem, true? not like it would be announced if power is down. on the other hand, i'd have to believe that 121.5 were operational? or are we talking about nobody on any frequency...at all? cell phone call to artcc from my airport facility directory would be attempted. i might be able to receive instructions from them via cell. i'd probably make an attempt to call fss on the cell and obtain a phone number for the number of the nearest tower-controlled airport to my current position and try to obtain approach clearance via cell. if no answer, or no help available going this way, seems my only option is to proceed, again, to nearest vfr weather...or are we out of range of it in your scenario as well? this sounds like a two-cigar day afterwards at any rate.. :bandit:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top