737 goes down off Hawaii

Boris Badenov said:
Yeah, people keep saying this, but I've yet to see a full explication of why. Plane landed. All lived. If the fire indication had extinguished, we'd be on the same page, 100%. Like, when there is no reason to do something else, follow the checklist, obviously. OF COURSE, OBVIOUSLY. Shouldn't even be in contention. But sometimes things don't go by the script, however well-thought-out the script may be. And if you ask me, which you didn't, but I'll pretend you did: Mario Luigicart is a Great Airman, who did what was necessary to get his plane (and, more importantly, his passengers) on the ground in one piece. Like, what's the guidance in your QRH for "we blew the bottles, stuff is still on fire"?
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I don’t think that an engine that is still burning is really THAT far “off script.” If it goes out with the fire handles/bottles, fantastic. If it doesn’t, I’m not going to waste time, but I’m still more worried about rushing causing more problems.

Again, it depends on the situation. But there are probably just as many “they were in a rush and did the wrong thing” vs “they pulled a Sully”
 
Screaming_Emu said:
Again, it depends on the situation. But there are probably just as many “they were in a rush and did the wrong thing” vs “they pulled a Sully”
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Maybe in the abstract? But I can't think up an instance where "get it on the ground right now" was the wrong call, and I can think of a number where the opposite was the wrong call. Which is obviously not comprehensive, but it does, like, SUGGEST, a bit? Swissair, Saudia, Air Canada...
 
Boris Badenov said:
Maybe in the abstract? But I can't think up an instance where "get it on the ground right now" was the wrong call, and I can think of a number where the opposite was the wrong call. Which is obviously not comprehensive, but it does, like, SUGGEST, a bit? Swissair, Saudia, Air Canada...
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Again. It all depends. Cargo fire? That’s unlikely to be solved in the air. I’d be shocked if a checklist for any of the issues you’re thinking of don’t say “land immediately at nearest suitable.” Put any crew that’s worth anything in the sim and I think you’ll see one concentrating on getting the plane back to the airport and one running the checklist. That’s been my experience in the entirety of my career.
 
Screaming_Emu said:
Again. It all depends. Cargo fire? That’s unlikely to be solved in the air. I’d be shocked if a checklist for any of the issues you’re thinking of don’t say “land immediately at nearest suitable.” Put any crew that’s worth anything in the sim and I think you’ll see one concentrating on getting the plane back to the airport and one running the checklist. That’s been my experience in the entirety of my career.
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Well, so obviously "it all depends". I think we're trains passing in the night here. As I said above, if there's not a reason to deviate from the approved method, obviously one shouldn't. The approved method should be the default setting. One shouldn't just land right now because holy crap a light went on. But this is all becoming apocryphal. The initial idea, at least AFAIC, was that we tend to train to "take it airborne" and run through at least 2 or 3 checklists before it's "safe" to land. I was suggesting that *in the aggregate*, that's maybe not the best way to view things. Like maybe the presumption should be more like "let's land right now". This isn't an argument about absolutes, it's an argument about gradations.
 
Boris Badenov said:
Well, so obviously "it all depends". I think we're trains passing in the night here. As I said above, if there's not a reason to deviate from the approved method, obviously one shouldn't. The approved method should be the default setting. One shouldn't just land right now because holy crap a light went on. But this is all becoming apocryphal. The initial idea, at least AFAIC, was that we tend to train to "take it airborne" and run through at least 2 or 3 checklists before it's "safe" to land. I was suggesting that *in the aggregate*, that's maybe not the best way to view things. Like maybe the presumption should be more like "let's land right now". This isn't an argument about absolutes, it's an argument about gradations.
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I see what you’re saying, I just think you have your ratios backwards. I think it’s in aggregate very rare to have a problem where “land TF NOW” vs eating your sausage McMuffin and running the checklist (@derg) in the radar pattern is the pro gamer move. You just don’t hear about the second ones because they’re only interesting when someone fouls it up and tries to blame their screwup on “tHe ChEcKlIsT mAdE mE dO iT”

IDK I’m pretty new to the part 25 jet thing but what I’ve gathered from reading the now-old-farts on here over the years is that a single engine failure in a part 25 airplane with nothing in front of you to hit and no other damage is very much a second scenario not a first.
 
I was hungry and it was there! I needed to carb and fat load for the approach! :)

I think the only scenario that I've had in sim or the real world that "We gotta get it on the ground NOW", apart from GI issues, was a sim scenario during 350 IQ where we had a massive fire onboard - but it wasn't a matter of procedure, it was a matter of splitting the cockpit, one guy points the jet at the runway as fast as he can and configures for an autoland (because if you check-out on short final from the fumes, you're especially dead, but the jet is more than happy to bring itself to a stop on the runway) and the other pilot does as much as he can to run *some* checklists, but at some point has to make the decision to know when it's enough and to loop back into the task of helping get the fireball on the ground.
 
derg said:
I was hungry and it was there! I needed to carb and fat load for the approach! :)

I think the only scenario that I've had in sim or the real world that "We gotta get it on the ground NOW", apart from GI issues, was a sim scenario during 350 IQ where we had a massive fire onboard - but it wasn't a matter of procedure, it was a matter of splitting the cockpit, one guy points the jet at the runway as fast as he can and configures for an autoland (because if you check-out on short final from the fumes, you're especially dead, but the jet is more than happy to bring itself to a stop on the runway) and the other pilot does as much as he can to run *some* checklists, but at some point has to make the decision to know when it's enough and to loop back into the task of helping get the fireball on the ground.
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And who dumps the fuel on school kids? ;)
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
And who dumps the fuel on school kids? ;)
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Right on your children's elementary school. COME AT ME BRUH! :)

Nah, we can't dump fuel as it's honestly over-estimated. Airbus says if the plane can make it out, it'll make it back in on that runway. Plus, up to 600,000 pounds w/autoland, it's just a minor inspection and the plane is flyable shortly thereafter.
 
derg said:
Right on your children's elementary school. COME AT ME BRUH! :)

Nah, we can't dump fuel as it's honestly over-estimated. Airbus says if the plane can make it out, it'll make it back in on that runway. Plus, up to 600,000 pounds w/autoland, it's just a minor inspection and the plane is flyable shortly thereafter.
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No one at the virtual airline should be making fun of anyone about things to do with the fuel system.
 
MikeD said:
The only reason they pressed out to a black hole ocean, at low altitude, at night….when they could’ve stayed visual with a lighted land mass and maneuvered to land, was because of management chastising the captain for using basic aeronautical judgement.
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Some of ya'll are making the dark open ocean into a "mission to mars" :) My most dire emergencies usually involved zero horizon, a single point of distant light and a seagoing runway that was moving at 10-20 knots. Not advocating for making your life more difficult, but I mean, it is kinda like being in clouds. Scan the instruments. Correct bad trends. There's two people too, for god sakes....
 
KLB said:
Ok guys and gals. Let's run an excercise. You have been made aware of a lithium battery fire back in the cabin/cargo area that has gotten out of control. The FA's (for you passenger carrying dudes/dudettes) are fighting the fire the best they can. But it has become uncontained. Do you run the checklist as written by your company/aircraft manufacturer or do you turn direct the airport to land ASAP?
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I’m turning back to the airport and landing faster than a Kardashian getting naked for a rich guy. Do as much of the checklist as you can but other than that let’s get on the ground. Doesn’t help much to run the checklist and the airframe and flight control cables are burning. Sometimes it seems like common sense goes out the window in some situations because we’re so reliant on checklist.
 
phill1174 said:
I’m turning back to the airport and landing faster than a Kardashian getting naked for a rich guy. Do as much of the checklist as you can but other than that let’s get on the ground. Doesn’t help much to run the checklist and the airframe and flight control cables are burning. Sometimes it seems like common sense goes out the window in some situations because we’re so reliant on checklist.
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Not sure about the -200, but there is some wisdom I've heard floating around out there, that as long as you just took off from the runway, you can come back and land on it (though maybe an overweight inspection). Maybe as good gouge as "if you can see the airport, you can't run out of gas", but it generally makes sense to me. And I have definitely done this in numerous check rides in my old ride.......engine fire above 100 knots, cool not a high speed abort item, get airborne, ask for tower downwind and land while I knock out the 5 memory items in the minute or two. But the instructor always laughs and says "oh the runway is closed, gear out of battery" to force the full checklist, even though the real items that matter are only going flaps half and emergency extending the gear (which is one step more than normally lowering it), and putting the tail hook down if it is the right (which was already item #5 of the boldface for engine fire). We love checklists, hate to remember them well enough to do them efficiently.
 
///AMG said:
Some of ya'll are making the dark open ocean into a "mission to mars" :) My most dire emergencies usually involved zero horizon, a single point of distant light and a seagoing runway that was moving at 10-20 knots. Not advocating for making your life more difficult, but I mean, it is kinda like being in clouds. Scan the instruments. Correct bad trends. There's two people too, for god sakes....
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You had no choice, you’re blue water ops. Do or die.

These guys had a choice.
 
derg said:
I was hungry and it was there! I needed to carb and fat load for the approach! :)

I think the only scenario that I've had in sim or the real world that "We gotta get it on the ground NOW", apart from GI issues, was a sim scenario during 350 IQ where we had a massive fire onboard - but it wasn't a matter of procedure, it was a matter of splitting the cockpit, one guy points the jet at the runway as fast as he can and configures for an autoland (because if you check-out on short final from the fumes, you're especially dead, but the jet is more than happy to bring itself to a stop on the runway) and the other pilot does as much as he can to run *some* checklists, but at some point has to make the decision to know when it's enough and to loop back into the task of helping get the fireball on the ground.
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Every year at PC time, we have an un-put-out-able engine fire. Every year, I have to point out to the F/O 2-3 times that "hey, it's still burning." Once they understand that, then comes the "Forget the ECAM, we have no more firefighting capability. Use your time doing something else like putting something in the box so I can land, or getting the evacuation checklist pulled up. Maybe tell someone what we're about to do."
 
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