717 certification stall test

Derg said:
One of my friends owns an L39.

I just wanted to drop that semi-sequitur.
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Sweet, sweet Glide Shift...
Kubota-L39.jpg
 
Acrofox said:
Just to be clear, you're agreeing with me, right? I'm never sure these days!

-Fox
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Slightly, but not really.

While doing acro in a light aircraft certainly would help in the recognition and recovery of an unusual attitude in a heavy aircraft it is most certainly not a substitute for experiencing that sort of event in heavy.

There is probably a cost/benefit analysis to be done about whether the experience gained from spending a small(er) amount of money on going up in a light plane is worth the experience vs. saving up longer and doing the same thing in a heavy jet specific program.
 
BobDDuck said:
Slightly, but not really.

While doing acro in a light aircraft certainly would help in the recognition and recovery of an unusual attitude in a heavy aircraft it is most certainly not a substitute for experiencing that sort of event in heavy.

There is probably a cost/benefit analysis to be done about whether the experience gained from spending a small(er) amount of money on going up in a light plane is worth the experience vs. saving up longer and doing the same thing in a heavy jet specific program.
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Yes and no. You need to have the basics down of what to do in the first place. Then, you apply those basics to the aircraft you are flying.

Things like keeping Gs symmetric, when recovering from a nose low. Rolling to the nearest horizon vs just pushing it over, if above X pitch attitude when nose high. Idle and/or boards when nose low, power when nose high. All that stuff applies to nearly any aircraft. How you apply that, and what your limitations when doing so are, is the blanks that need to be filled in. The mechanics of severe unusual attitude recovery is the same whether in a T-38 or a 727, the limitations and therefore the application, will just be different.
 
BobDDuck said:
Slightly, but not really.

While doing acro in a light aircraft certainly would help in the recognition and recovery of an unusual attitude in a heavy aircraft it is most certainly not a substitute for experiencing that sort of event in heavy.
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That's what I was saying.

Acrofox said:
I've never been quite sure whether the "upset recovery" courses, taught in relatively dirty dedicated aerobatic airplanes with all-airspeed control performance by aerobatic pilots with minimal-to-no transport-category experience are meaningfully better than just going out and getting familiar with strapping on a low-performance all-attitude airplane for a lot less dough.
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In other words, while an "upset recovery" course may be good for getting the feeling of being upside down, and help eliminate much of the startle response, I suspect that it is likely ineffective in teaching how to recover transport-category airplanes, and thus showing you what it's like to be upside down is just as well performed in a Decathlon.

-Fox
 
Acrofox said:
In other words, while an "upset recovery" course may be good for getting the feeling of being upside down, and help eliminate much of the startle response, I suspect that it is likely ineffective in teaching how to recover transport-category airplanes, and thus showing you what it's like to be upside down is just as well performed in a Decathlon.

-Fox
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A recovery from an unusual attitude is the same objective across the board: when severe nose down, idle (minimize accelerating towards the ground) and boards, roll upright, then recover to the horizon / level flight.

In any aircraft, this is what you're attempting to do. Don't do it, and pack it in.

How you do this with regards to limitations, is what will vary.

No rocket science here.
 
MikeD said:
A recovery from an unusual attitude is the same objective across the board: when severe nose down, idle (minimize accelerating towards the ground) and boards, roll upright, then recover to the horizon / level flight.

In any aircraft, this is what you're attempting to do. Don't do it, and pack it in.
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Sure, so why spend $$extra$$ to do it in an Extra?
 
Acrofox said:
Sure, so why spend $$extra$$ to do it in an Extra?
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If you've never experienced it, it's good to at least have seen it. A light jet would be nice, but any acro bird would generally suffice in terms of the basics.

One of those things that if its at all possible to have experienced it before it occurs for real, gives you that one more card to place in your bag of SA. Because it's very easy to highly overstress the aircraft, possibly terminally, if performed wrong in the sheer panic or stress of the moment.

Is it a "need to have"? No. Is it a very good "nice to have"? I think so.
 
MikeD said:
If you've never experienced it, it's good to at least have seen it. A light jet would be nice, but any acro bird would generally suffice in terms of the basics.

One of those things that if its at all possible to have experienced it before it occurs for real, gives you that one more card to place in your bag of SA. Because it's very easy to highly overstress the aircraft, possibly terminally, if performed wrong in the sheer panic or stress of the moment.

Is it a "need to have"? No. Is it a very good "nice to have"? I think so.
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You're quoting me, but that's a separate point. I absolutely agree that everyone should experience acro. I think everyone should experience at least some acro in primary training.

I am expressing doubt in the "upset recovery" course marketed to large-aircraft pilots, done in high-performance aerobatic aircraft, and the ability of that to teach anything substantially better than five or ten hours of acro in a Super D. I'm inviting people to tell me what I'm missing in that regard.

-Fox
 
Acrofox said:
I am expressing doubt in the "upset recovery" course marketed to large-aircraft pilots, done in high-performance aerobatic aircraft, and the ability of that to teach anything substantially better than five or ten hours of acro in a Super D. I'm inviting people to tell me what I'm missing in that regard.

-Fox
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I would hope that those courses would be teaching the basics I'm talking about, and even maybe go further in discussing the specific application in terms of limitations and technique to stay within them, for particular airframes, since these courses appear to be marketed directly to/for large aircraft pilots. If they do that, I can see their use.

Ideally, they shouldn't be just be "acro", that should be an introduction sure. But the bulk of it needs to be "applied acro", in terms of the basic mechanics of actual severe unusual attitude recovery training.

If it's not doing that, then yeah, I can see it just being being five to ten hours of generic acro in X airplane.
 
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