709 ride for frayed seatbelts?!

The stupid part about this whole thread is that really, the FAA could show up at nearly any airport and ground every aircraft on the field if they REALLY wanted to be nitnoid about airworthiness enforcement........you could probably find something minutia wrong with any aircraft, anywhere. But that kind of attitude wouldn't be consistent with one of their stated missions of "encouraging and promoting civil aeronautics."

While the FAA can come after a renter pilot for airworthiness items, they typically go after the owners and the mechanics.

There's realisticly no way for you as a pilot to tell a TSO alternator vs one from Autozone, they are physically and functionally identical. If you borrowed your buddy's 172 for the weekend, and a FSDO investigator shows up, you should not be the target.


Now, if you run into a FSDO inspector with an attitude, just say "yes sir" and wait for him to move on to his next victim.
 
Well as long as people are throwing out crazy "ramped" stories.
I know two guys that work for a certain company that were ramped by the same guy about a month apart and said guy took both of their pictures. Most wanted?
 
Speaking of seatbelts, this is a little off topic, but is it optional for a passenger to not wear his or her seatbelt on takeoff/landing? The reason I ask is I had a friend taking his private checkride, and when going through the checklist, he noticed the examiner did not have his seatbelt on. He repeated the item on the list out loud so the examiner would take the hint and the examiner says "Oh, I never wear the seatbelt, they are useless."
 
That's VERY obvious. However, there was never anyone justifying themselves for being violated.



That doesn't apply in the story you told. All you did was ignore the procedure to make something right if you find something wrong. You could have gotten the fax, flown the flight and the FO still might have not been checked. Instances like yours were one of the reason that exemption exists.



Again, you really can't see the forest from the trees.

The issue wasn't with the inspector pointing out something wrong. It was with his brazen and bullying attitude. His threatening of a pilot WITHOUT knowing, seeing or even being aware of a violation. If you don't see a problem with that, then there's really nothing anyone can do to explain it to you.

The FAA has the right to inspect you, your operation or your equipment at anytime. I don't think anyone is surprised by that. What they don't have the right to do is to wield unchecked power. And putting a pilot under duress makes the flight questionably legal.

If the pilot is so worried about a 709 ride (and who wouldn't be) that he makes a mistake on a flight and at best gets a violation out of it, due to the inspector's attitude, there is a problem.

As I think about it, it's almost insulting that you are defending the inspector's crass attitude. While not every inspector has been great to work with, I have found each and everyone I have dealt with over the years to be professional.

If you actually look at what I wrote I never defended the inspector's crass attitude. Should the inspector throw around the threat of a 709 ride? Of course not. Is a 709 ride the end of someoe's flying life? Hardly.
I defended the right of the FAA to violate pilots who fly airplanes in unairworthy conditions. Some on this board asserted that pilots could only be violated for flying an aircraft that was unsafe. I pointed out that the NTSB judges on numerous occasions have actually determined that a pilot knowingly flying an airplane that was unairworthy v. unsafe has resulted in many pilot facing certification action. What pilots do with that information is up to them. Personally, I'm pretty careful about unairworthy matters in aircraft as even discounting safety I know it would not take much to get a violation. I know it is required by the FARs for a pilot to fly with a medical, pilot certificate and picture ID... yet I can only find one case where the FAA has taken legal action against a pilot who forgot to have his pilot certificate while flying (pilot in question flew an airplane under a bridge, attracted attention, and also did not report some things on his medical so there were definately other issues involved). Heck, in my case if my head had not been up my rear end I would have called crew scheduling and had them fax up a copy of the FOs certificate and medical since it was in our operations manual that we could do this. Not to say the FAA won't chew out the pilot involved if they find one flying without their required items. As a matter of fact I know one pilot who showed up for a 709 ride without a picture ID. It ended up being an expensive 709 ride as he had to find a CFI to fly him home and reschedule the ride for another day, but the FAA took no certification action against him for the flight to the FSDO. Of course that FSDO is part of the 90% "good guys" and I think they figured he had learned his lesson.
So pilots here are free to read through some of the case histories and learn from the lessons of others, or ignore them. Not my call one way or another. I will point out what the FAA/NTSB legal types have written in the past, however. Can any airplane be grounded for a unairworthy item? Probably. But from what I've seen the FAA only has so many inspectors and so much time. If they find something inadvertant or something not obvious they will normally mention it so you can have it taken care of. Heck, just went through a 141 inspection and, while some issues were found that made the airplane "unairworthy" they were sipmple fixes, really minor things that were easy to overlook, and the safety inspectors did not start going through the flight records so they could violate every pilot who had ever flown the airplane. If you actually read the memo I attached from the FAA they even admitted that seatbelts missing TCO labels were not their number one priority and would not constitute a violation if one flew without them. So if anything I was pointing out that the inspector would probably have a tough time making his case for a 709 ride if the pilot was aware of the memo.
 
Since, at this point, the thread has devolved to the point of just making stupid arguments I'll leave it at this:

If I fly our pax jet, and I get a 709 ride because there is a frayed seatbelt out of the 500 on board in the cabin, there will be a fist fight.


Thank you, Martin!

Welcome to the real world, everyone else!

I'm all in for the cage fight if the dickhead FAA guy would really do this!

In my 24 year 121 career I have never encountered an FAA inspector who was such a dick.

Most of them are good guys trying to to do a crappy job. I've heard all of the "urban Legends" about rogue FAA inspectors, but I've never met one.


I recently had a commute from ORD on a EMB-170 where a FAA maintenance inspector was ramp checking the aircraft. ORD gate agents boarded the aircraft not knowing that the FAA guy had gone out to the ramp with the F/O and asked for the right engine inspection panel to be opened. The regional maintenance guy was called out and could not open said panel...

We took an hour delay while they (the regional airline) decided how to deal with this. They had their own maintenance at ORD, but the guy working this flight was (to me) obviously nervous about dealing with the Fed. He wanted to get a new panel from Maintenance stores when really he just needed to "whang" the existing one. Eventually that's what happened, and the FAA guy was fine with it.


Was the FAA guy a "dick" because he wanted that panel open?

I say no, he was just doing his job. Unfortunately it made everyone on that flight 1 hour late for their connections.

It's a complicated "system" we work in. Sometimes the parts of the system don't work the way we'd like...


Kevin
 
Even thats a bit crippy. On the 135 cargo side of the industry, that hour delay would have been the difference between the company making a profit off of that flight or not. I've been ramped but I've never been held up.
 
Even thats a bit crippy. On the 135 cargo side of the industry, that hour delay would have been the difference between the company making a profit off of that flight or not. I've been ramped but I've never been held up.

Yep, "sorry sir, I gotta go, if you want to ride along you can, but I gotta boogey!"
 
If they want to ride they'll have to call my company and schedule it, just showing up is too big of a disruption in my opinion.

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk
 
If they want to ride they'll have to call my company and schedule it, just showing up is too big of a disruption in my opinion.

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk

The FAA does not need to schedule a ramp check or to schedule to ride the jump seat. Denying access is not a good idea unless there are extenuating circumstances such as a written policy in your operations manual.
http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/Aviation/3487.pdf
http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/Aviation/4766.pdf
Now if you are in a hurry and need to keep a schedule, let the inspector know. If the inspector insists on slowing you down, I'd be polite and play along. Take down his information and pass it on to your management, but don't blow off the inspector. It's a good way to get unneeded attention. Going forward in a career, if you are terminated from a job for being late due to a ramp check most prospective employees will understand what you did. If you have to talk about enforcement action for blowing off a safety inspector during an interview, however, things will most likely not go well.
A couple of random thoughts.
1. None of us knows the condition of the seat belt in question.
2. Just about all of us would agree that if the description of the OP is accurate the Safety Inspector was pretty crass. Leading by intimidation and threats is pretty boorish and uncalled for. Even if the seat belt in question was severely worn a better approach would be to point it out to the pilot and recommend he write it up, placard the seat as unusable, and have maintenance inspect it (most seat belt manufacturers do have inspection standards for their seat belts that can be used to determine if they are functional). Still, you have to deal with both types of FAA Safety Inspectors. The good ones- the ones who have a wide variety of experience, have been there, done that, and know what you are going through. If they find things they are normally pretty gentle about it and really have your safety and welfare foremost. Then there are the... interesting ones. Fortunately, I've only run into one of the latter in my flying career. But if you happen to run into one of them, tread lightly and be polite. Getting into a pissing contest may give you momentary satisfaction, but you will probably lose in the long run. If you are polite and have your ducks in a row, however, the inspector also has a boss who probably will not tolerate bullies. A 709 ride for a frayed seatbelt? If that is all there is I think the FSDO manager will have something to say about it.
3. Part of the reason I list NTSB legal decisions is to show past FAA enforcements for certain areas. Many times people will post things without actually checking to see what the FAA's legal opinion is- either from their legal decisions or enforcement actions. In this thread, for example, saying a pilot is not responsible for determining an aircraft's airworthiness; or trying to deny the FAA access to an aircraft during a ramp inspection or cockpit check. I can state my opinion on such matters, but really it's just the opinion of another dude on the internet and it matters about as much as my opinion on the price of tea in China. What matters is what the FAA has said/written in the past. Some things they come down on pretty hard- airworthiness, for example. Other areas... well, they can get you, but they probably won't spend the time/effort. There are only so many inspectors in an office and only so many hours in a 5 day work week.
 
I had a ramp check on a 135 airplane where the FAA inspector noted that we did not have any TSO tags on our seat belts. He followed with a letter informing us to correct the situation. I contacted the company that re-webbed our seat belts a few years earlier. They informed that they were not allowed to out TSO information on the seat belts if the seat belts did not come to them with TSO information on them. I responded to the FAA in writing, and informed the inspector of my conversation with the maintenance facility. He said that he would be glad to contact them to discuss this matter further with them, and that he would let me know the results of that conversation. Two weeks later, I received a follow up letter advising me to disregard the first letter. I had multiple ramp checks over the years (some scheduled and some not), most of them were pleasant experiences.
 
Had a co worker get ramped today. He was told that if the aircraft had so much as a frayed seat belt he would get a violation, and a 709 ride. That sounds ridiculous to me. How is that even justified and how the hell would a 709 ride be necessary?

In all honesty, if the inspector said this and your co-worker didn't end up with a 709, the inspector was making idle theats, mostly likely to intimidate the pilot, and maybe make an impression that flying with bad equip is bad juju.

The reason I say this, is that not one plane in the history of planes has ever been perfectly airworthy, especially once they get a few dozen years of flying on them. There will always be a loose screw/rivet or something if you look hard enough.
 
The reason I say this, is that not one plane in the history of planes has ever been perfectly airworthy, especially once they get a few dozen years of flying on them. There will always be a loose screw/rivet or something if you look hard enough.

Most days I'm happy to discover two wings securely attached.
 
Ironically I was ramp checked today. Only issue was the discovery that the AWC for the 310 was a copy, not the original. Double irony- an FAA safety inspector had given a check ride in the same airplane about 2 months ago yet missed that. Owner can't find the original, so FSDO is going produce one. I had to cancel the instructional flight, but told the safety inspectors that we would fly the 310 to the FSDO as soon as the new one was ready to pick it up.:rolleyes:
Oh, they also had an issue when I dropped my bottle of Prozac on the ramp.
 
Sounds like your buddy needs to get the guy's name, badge #, his FSDO and the name of the FSDO manager from the inspector.

:yeahthat:

I once got ramped by several FAA inspectors... It kept the mechanic and capt busy for awhile writing up all the stuff...enigne has oil on cowling, decal smugged, peeling paint, etc...
 
Speaking of seatbelts, this is a little off topic, but is it optional for a passenger to not wear his or her seatbelt on takeoff/landing? The reason I ask is I had a friend taking his private checkride, and when going through the checklist, he noticed the examiner did not have his seatbelt on. He repeated the item on the list out loud so the examiner would take the hint and the examiner says "Oh, I never wear the seatbelt, they are useless."

That is a very common examiner "trick".

§ 91.107 Use of safety belts, shoulder harnesses, and child restraint systems.

(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator -

(1) No pilot may takeoff a U.S.-registered civil aircraft (except a free balloon that incorporates a basket or gondola, or an airship type certificated before November 2, 1987) unless the pilot in command of that aircraft ensures that each person on board is briefed on how to fasten and unfasten that person's safety belt and, if installed, shoulder harness.

(2) No pilot may cause to be moved on the surface, takeoff, or land a U.S.-registered civil aircraft (except a free balloon that incorporates a basket or gondola, or an airship type certificated before November 2, 1987) unless the pilot in command of that aircraft ensures that each person on board has been notified to fasten his or her safety belt and, if installed, his or her shoulder harness.

Note that while one could argue there is no requirement to ensure each person has their seat belt fastened, it would be almost certain the examiner would disapprove the application (give a pink slip) for demonstrating poor judgment if the PIC were to allow the flight to take place with a non-compliant passenger aboard.
 
told the safety inspectors that we would fly the 310 to the FSDO as soon as the new one was ready to pick it up.

I know you are saying that tongue in cheek, but you could do that if you wanted to. All that would be needed is a special flight permit (ferry permit) and a mechanics endorsement that the aircraft is safe for the intended flight.
 
I know you are saying that tongue in cheek, but you could do that if you wanted to. All that would be needed is a special flight permit (ferry permit) and a mechanics endorsement that the aircraft is safe for the intended flight.

Yeah, but it was satisfying to see the reaction of the safety inspectors when I said this with a straight face.
 
:yeahthat:

I once got ramped by several FAA inspectors... It kept the mechanic and capt busy for awhile writing up all the stuff...enigne has oil on cowling, decal smugged, peeling paint, etc...
A friend of mine is dealing with an FAA inspector who has publicly said he wants to violate my friend's company. Some people just need to get over themselves.
 
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