709 ride for frayed seatbelts?!

In both cases I would say "Why did you operate the airplane if you believed it was unairworthy?"

Whether it is or isn't doesn't really matter. If it wasn't unairworthy then they wont violate you, but you still operated an airplane that you believed to be unairworthy, which is poor judgement.

The issue is a 709 ride for a minor issue. Basicially, what you guys are arguing about is giving a dude the death penalty for a parking violation.
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I believe we've all agreed that a 709 for a minor issue is bunk... now it's evolved into something else entirely, perhaps the thread should be split?
 
Blackhawk said:
And personally, yes. I've had FAs tell me seatbelts were missing TSO tags or installed incorrectly. When discovered I write it up. What does it hurt? Maybe a little more callus on my finger.
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I've done the same, but if I'm a passenger on Delta? Naw, don't think it's my job. I did mention a loose cowl latch on WN one time though.
 
Polar742 said:
I've done the same, but if I'm a passenger on Delta? Naw, don't think it's my job. I did mention a loose cowl latch on WN one time though.
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I did too once... the captain seemed annoyed, but hopefully he at least went and looked at it. I figure I did my part.
 
MikeD said:
Am glad I fly public-use aircraft........:)

On an inspection note, one day while performing a ramp check, a guy apparently was feeling guilty because he started rattling off to me about some instrument mod done to the plane and he meant to get the paperwork in, yada, yada. Had to get him to shut up in order to let him know I didn't really care, as those were not the droids I was looking for.

No need to volunteer anything on a ramp check, all you do is dig yourself a potential hole if its an FAA inspector.
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The old "answer the question that is asked, and only the question that was asked."
"Do you have your pilot certificate and photo ID?"
"Yes."
"Can I see it?"
"Yes."
"May I see it??"
"Oh, sure. Here you go."
 
Blackhawk said:
The old "answer the question that is asked, and only the question that was asked."
"Do you have your pilot certificate and photo ID?"
"Yes."
"Can I see it?"
"Yes."
"May I see it??"
"Oh, sure. Here you go."
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Wouldn't the answer to "Can I see it?" be "Well, not at the moment, it's in my wallet." ;)
 
Blackhawk said:
In this case the pilot will most likely not face certification action as he/she would believe the item has been repaired; but the mechanic involved will face emergency revocation, not just violation. FAA takes a dim view of mechanics knowingly signing things off as airworthy when they are not.
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Dude, there would be no mechanics left.
 
Blackhawk said:
I may have misread the answer question. I was assuming the mechanic knowingly did not repair the item yet returned the aircraft to service. Not that he tried to repair it and was not successful.
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Yeah, I've never been able to tell the difference either. Still broke? Yep.
 
Every ramp check I've endured has been fair and friendly. Only one that caused me heartburn was away from our base. FO comes running up to me and says:
"We're being ramp checked."
Me-"Yeah, not a big deal."
FO-"My certificate and medical are in my wallet."
Me-"Uh.. okay."
FO-"My wallet is in my overnight bag."
Me-"Then go get it out of your overnight bag."
FO-"My overnight bag is in the crew lounge. Back in ATL."
:banghead:i
Me-"Okay, I just forgot you told me that. That taco you had for lunch is kicking in. Go to the bathroom in operations and don't come out until I call in on the radio and tell them to get you."
So I stalled the inspector. He was also riding along with us... figured no way out of this. After everything is done, pax are loaded, inspector asks about the FO. I tell him he's taking care of the taco he had for ... FO crinkles his face. TMI. So I call on the radio for ops to get the FO. He comes running out, jumps in his seat and gets to work. Inspector says, "You're kind of busy, so I'll hold off on asking for your certificate and medical." Kept talking to the inspector throughout the flight, except for the sterile cockpit times, so he never thought of asking again.
 
Blackhawk said:
Every ramp check I've endured has been fair and friendly. Only one that caused me heartburn was away from our base. FO comes running up to me and says:
"We're being ramp checked."
Me-"Yeah, not a big deal."
FO-"My certificate and medical are in my wallet."
Me-"Uh.. okay."
FO-"My wallet is in my overnight bag."
Me-"Then go get it out of your overnight bag."
FO-"My overnight bag is in the crew lounge. Back in ATL."
:banghead:i
Me-"Okay, I just forgot you told me that. That taco you had for lunch is kicking in. Go to the bathroom in operations and don't come out until I call in on the radio and tell them to get you."
So I stalled the inspector. He was also riding along with us... figured no way out of this. After everything is done, pax are loaded, inspector asks about the FO. I tell him he's taking care of the taco he had for ... FO crinkles his face. TMI. So I call on the radio for ops to get the FO. He comes running out, jumps in his seat and gets to work. Inspector says, "You're kind of busy, so I'll hold off on asking for your certificate and medical." Kept talking to the inspector throughout the flight, except for the sterile cockpit times, so he never thought of asking again.
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Yeah but the rule says you need a medical and certificate. I mean that's the rule.
 
I worry about being ramped everyday in the 25 to 40 year old aircraft I fly everyday. I mean the FAA can 709 me for the wind screen not being clean!:o
 
Blackhawk said:
I agree. I forgot about it, however, after he told me. I remembered the story again after we landed. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
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So you found out that there was a non-compliance with FARs, and instead of getting the company to send him a fax under the exemption (which is a super easy fix), you consciously and actively lead a coverup of the violation with an FAA inspector on board.

And you got all worked up over a seatbelt tag?

The math don't check.
 
Polar742 said:
So you found out that there was a non-compliance with FARs, and instead of getting the company to send him a fax under the exemption (which is a super easy fix), you consciously and actively lead a coverup of the violation with an FAA inspector on board.

And you got all worked up over a seatbelt tag?

The math don't check.
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I get worked up about pilots trying to justify themselves if the FAA discovers a violation. I'm not going to volunteer anything to the FAA, but if they discover something, so be it. Nor do I go around calling the FAA for every perceived violation- even when I saw "blessed Jim" flying a 210 with no N- numbers. If the inspector had asked the FO for his certificates prior to departure he would have been well within his rights to stop the flight and I would not have complained. If the FAA points out an airworthiness issue- such as seatbelts- that I may not be aware of, I salute the flag and comply.
I don't think there is a pilot flying who has not looked at something as more gray than black until it can be taken care of. But it does not make it right if the FAA finds out. "Billy does it" did not work growing up and does not work with the FAA. I can point out what the NTSB has ruled during legal hearings, but what each pilot does is up to the PIC, God, and the FAA... if they find out. The safety inspector in the OPs case was pointing out what he might do if he discovered a violation. Well within his rights.
 
Blackhawk said:
I get worked up about pilots trying to justify themselves if the FAA discovers a violation.
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That's VERY obvious. However, there was never anyone justifying themselves for being violated.

I'm not going to volunteer anything to the FAA, but if they discover something, so be it.
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That doesn't apply in the story you told. All you did was ignore the procedure to make something right if you find something wrong. You could have gotten the fax, flown the flight and the FO still might have not been checked. Instances like yours were one of the reason that exemption exists.

If the FAA points out an airworthiness issue- such as seatbelts- that I may not be aware of, I salute the flag and comply.

I don't think there is a pilot flying who has not looked at something as more gray than black until it can be taken care of. But it does not make it right if the FAA finds out. "Billy does it" did not work growing up and does not work with the FAA. I can point out what the NTSB has ruled during legal hearings, but what each pilot does is up to the PIC, God, and the FAA... if they find out. The safety inspector in the OPs case was pointing out what he might do if he discovered a violation. Well within his rights.
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Again, you really can't see the forest from the trees.

The issue wasn't with the inspector pointing out something wrong. It was with his brazen and bullying attitude. His threatening of a pilot WITHOUT knowing, seeing or even being aware of a violation. If you don't see a problem with that, then there's really nothing anyone can do to explain it to you.

The FAA has the right to inspect you, your operation or your equipment at anytime. I don't think anyone is surprised by that. What they don't have the right to do is to wield unchecked power. And putting a pilot under duress makes the flight questionably legal.

If the pilot is so worried about a 709 ride (and who wouldn't be) that he makes a mistake on a flight and at best gets a violation out of it, due to the inspector's attitude, there is a problem.

As I think about it, it's almost insulting that you are defending the inspector's crass attitude. While not every inspector has been great to work with, I have found each and everyone I have dealt with over the years to be professional.
 
MikeD said:
The stupid part about this whole thread is that really, the FAA could show up at nearly any airport and ground every aircraft on the field if they REALLY wanted to be nitnoid about airworthiness enforcement........you could probably find something minutia wrong with any aircraft, anywhere. But that kind of attitude wouldn't be consistent with one of their stated missions of "encouraging and promoting civil aeronautics."
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Word.

Personally, I think it's impossible for an aircraft to be airworthy and to conduct a flight without breaking at least on FAR. If an inspector wants to, they can always find something, even if there's nothing wrong.

Shoot, we're all going to get a warning letter or violation at the least and a suspension at worst somewhere along the way in our careers because of some officious jerk who woke up on the wrong side of the bed, or maybe because we actually screwed up.

I've given up worrying about it.
 
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