61.87(C) - 90 Recurrency for an "adopted" student

C150J

C150J

Well-Known Member
Hi guys -

This is a N00b CFI question that has spun off from the thread concerning the expired student pilot certificate. I will have a student tomorrow who is seeking 90-day recurrency that I have never flown with. Personally, I want to see him do the fifteen maneuvers in 61.87(C), as this is the first endorsement I will ever give a student (very new CFI). Another CFI I know is claiming that, although smart, this is not legally mandated for 90-day endorsements. I have a great chief instructor that will be briefing me on this student prior to my flight tomorrow, but I would appreciate a heads-up from my JC friends.

Thanks!
J.
 
I think the other CFI is wrong. Here's why.

Unfortunately, they way the recommended endorsements are worded, there's a difference between the initial endorsement and the 90-day "renewals". But if you look at the FAR, there isn't. All the FAR says (from the student's perspective) is:
==============================
61.87(n) Limitations on student pilots operating an aircraft in solo flight. A student pilot may not operate an aircraft in solo flight unless that student pilot has received:
(1) An endorsement from an authorized instructor on his or her student pilot certificate for the specific make and model aircraft to be flown; and
(2) An endorsement in the student's logbook for the specific make and model aircraft to be flown by an authorized instructor, who gave the training within the 90 days preceding the date of the flight.
==============================

So all it says is that a student must have a one-time student certificate endorsement and a logbook endorsement that is at least 90 days "fresh."

Now, let's turn to the applicable CFI rule:

==============================
61.195(d) Limitations on endorsements. A flight instructor may not endorse a:
(1) Student pilot's certificate or logbook for solo flight privileges, unless that flight instructor has -
(i) Given that student the flight training required for solo flight privileges required by this part; and
(ii) Determined that the student is prepared to conduct the flight safely under known circumstances, subject to any limitations listed in the student's logbook that the instructor considers necessary for the safety of the flight.
==============================

See any difference between the initial and the "renewals?" See anything that suggests that the CFI who signs the "renewal" doesn't have to give the required training?

Neither do I.
 
agreed, without visiting the 15 maneuvers, legally your butt would be in a sling should anything happen
 
moxiepilot said:
agreed, without visiting the 15 maneuvers, legally your butt would be in a sling should anything happen
Click to expand...


Thanks all -

Went with the student this morning... I was surprised how quickly we got through them all (he was really competent - 100+ hour student pilot).

J.
 
First of all, welcome to the wonderful world of being a CFI!

Second, even if the regs allow it, don't sign someone off until you are comfortable with them. I have learned this the hard way a few times by signing students off to take checkrides and then having them fail. Just remember that once you sign someone's logbook you are putting your name on the line--especially with BFRs. I have found that many pilots see BFRs as too extensive and uncessesary but I won't sign someone off until I know that they are doing things correctly. Now, that doesn't mean you beat someone up until they fly every manuever perfectly, just think of how you would feel sending your wife or child up with this person at the end of your signoff period.

Finally--don't ever stop thinking that your students only goal in life is to kill you :insane:
 
I'm new to this job as well, the best advice I have recieved is that we are looking towards the future, we want to keep our certificates. Even though the FAA requires one thing you have to set your own standards, which should be higher. Give your transfered students a through check-out until you are 100% comfortable in signing them off. You never know what yahoo signed them off before. I've had a student that had the endorsements and never completed all the 15 manuvers with thier previous instructor. My motto is to be conservitive and make sure YOU evaluate the student before letting them go.
 
To me, the wording in the FAR's *require* that you find him proficient in all maneuvers prescribed in 61.87(d)

Look at 61.87(p) Limitations on instructor authorizing solo flight.
(1) No instructor may authorize a student pilot to perform a solo flight unless that instructor has-
(i) Given that student pilot training in the make and model of aircraft in which the solo flight is to be flown;
(ii) determined that the student pilot is proficient in the maneuvers and procedures prescribed in this section.

What section? My best guess is 61.87(d) Also I think that would be the NTSB Judge's interpretation.
 
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