61.31 (I) Tailwheel endorsement cat/ class question

[drunkenbeagle]

It's no different than if a pilot, rated in single engine airplanes only, managed to get a tailwheel endorsement in a Beech 18 and then wanted to claim PIC prvlges in multi-engine airplanes on that basis.

In your scenario, you would get the 61.31(i) tailwheel endorsement, a 61.31(d)(2) PIC endorsement, and you would be perfectly legal to solo PIC a Beech 18.

Your premise that he is a SE student is incorrect. Since he is already a certificated pilot, he is getting a PIC endorsement to his ATP cert, to act as PIC in an ASEL.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

I never said he couldn't give the tailwheel endorsement- only that the endorsee can't use that endorsement for solo or PIC flight in a class of airplane (single engine) he's not otherwise rated in.

Well, of course not, unless the trainee later gets rated or receives a separate 61.31(d)(2) endorsement.

But, as I recall, the only question was whether you can give a ME pilot a tailwheel endorsement using a single-engine airplane for the instruction, not whether that suddenly allow the trainee to go fly singles. And your posts at least suggested you thought you couldn't and that the ATP was suddenly a "student pilot" all over again subject to all the requirements for one with only a student pilot certificate.

I always recall a discussion about later certificate and ratings for private (and higher) pilots: "You'll never be a student pilot again." That doesn't mean that you won't require training or teaching; only that the FARs that talk about "student pilots" will not apply to you.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

Well, of course not, unless the trainee later gets rated or receives a separate 61.31(d)(2) endorsement.

It would make sense to give both endorsements at the same time, in fact, I'm having trouble thinking of a scenario where you wouldn't. The 31.31(d)(2) would be necessary to get rated in an ASEL anyway, you would need it for the checkride.

 

[CFI A&P]

The answer to the OP's question....

Thanks. That exactly what I was looking for, someone else to verify that cat/ class doesn't affect 61.31(I).

 

[Mike H]

Well, of course not, unless the trainee later gets rated or receives a separate 61.31(d)(2) endorsement.

But, as I recall, the only question was whether you can give a ME pilot a tailwheel endorsement using a single-engine airplane for the instruction, not whether that suddenly allow the trainee to go fly singles. And your posts at least suggested you thought you couldn't and that the ATP was suddenly a "student pilot" all over again subject to all the requirements for one with only a student pilot certificate.

I always recall a discussion about later certificate and ratings for private (and higher) pilots: "You'll never be a student pilot again." That doesn't mean that you won't require training or teaching; only that the FARs that talk about "student pilots" will not apply to you.

I think we are in basic agreement here. In this context, "student" means "someone receiving instruction", regardless of ratings held. Even though I already had a Private ASEL rating, when I trained for my instrument rating, I was an Instrument Student. Even though I held a Commercial ASEL rating, I was a Multi Engine Student, and then a CFI Student, and so-on.

There is also the distinction to be made between solo and PIC. Solo means solo, while PIC could mean solo, or it could mean PIC with pasengers. This is why I said, the ATP-ME could certainly get a tailwheel endorsement in a Cub and be legal to be PIC in a Beech 18, but in order to continue to fly the Cub, he'd also need a solo endorsement every 90 days; and now that I've brought it up, he still could only fly the Cub solo- no passengers- until such time as he added on a single engine rating at some level.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

There is also the distinction to be made between solo and PIC. Solo means solo, while PIC could mean solo, or it could mean PIC with pasengers. This is why I said, the ATP-ME could certainly get a tailwheel endorsement in a Cub and be legal to be PIC in a Beech 18, but in order to continue to fly the Cub, he'd also need a solo endorsement every 90 days; and now that I've brought it up, he still could only fly the Cub solo- no passengers- until such time as he added on a single engine rating at some level.

you are correct that he could not fly the cub with passengers.

He cannot get a 90 day solo endorsement, those only apply for holders of student pilot certificates.

He would get a PIC endorsement in the cub, which need not have any time limit. (I used a PIC endorsement to fly a category I was not rated in for over a year.)

It is pretty common to have endorsements carry over from other category/classes. Most folks get their complex/HP endorsements in singles.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

I think we are in basic agreement here. In this context, "student" means "someone receiving instruction", regardless of ratings held. Even though I already had a Private ASEL rating, when I trained for my instrument rating, I was an Instrument Student. Even though I held a Commercial ASEL rating, I was a Multi Engine Student, and then a CFI Student, and so-on.

The only reason I went into the technicalities were your posts suggesting that regulatory things like 90-day solo endorsements applied. In that context (regulations that apply to student pilots) "student pilot" = "person with no certificate or a student pilot certificate" not to "certificated pilot who is taking instruction."

That's one of the reasons I like the term "trainee" as opposed to "student" when we start talking about post-PP instruction. Less confusion over terminology.