BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
Badges? We don't need no stinking badges!
60 Minutes: Is the Air Force's F-22 fighter jet making pilots sick?
- Thread starter GatorFC
- Start date
///AMG
Well-Known Member
Here's a tip: Mike just doesn't want to admit that he was but a lowly attack puke
But seriously, not saying that you don't have some valid points, but what we are giving you is our perspective, which is that of operational tactical flying. Not testing, not R&D, not fleet support. Those guys have their own opinions in some cases, and they also have a world of politics and funding considerations that we are able to largely ignore. The goal is to get everyone, from the good guys to the "bags" home safely, and I'd personally like to have the best chance possible of doing that. We are clearly equipped to fight the kind of low threat conflicts that we have been fighting for the last few decades, but the question is whether we are prepared for a fight that includes IADS and an air-to-air threat. I think we are, but proliferation and more advanced technology across the board is making that margin smaller.
As for the commentary from the "JC Fighter Mafia", I think we pretty much try to only speak from experience. You will not find me arguing points with the 121 or 135 guys, things which I have no personal experience with, and getting all huffy when they don't agree with me. I might have an opinion on some things, but I realize that those opinions are just that, and not learned from actual experience. If our opinions differ from yours, that's fine, and it is silly to take an online debate personally. I too had a dad who flew an entire military career ('58-'80), and I will say that his perspective was quite different than my own when I started doing this for a living. Point being that I would take what you hear from one guy with a grain of salt. But this does beg the question, who exactly is it that you feel would have better insight into this debate than current active duty fighter pilots?
///AMG
Well-Known Member
This is the silliest part of this debate. It plainly can't be intelligently argued unclass on an Internet board. I am aware that you don't know what you are talking about here. I prefer to keep my job than explain to you the reasons why. Nothing personal. Fair enough?
knot4u
Repeat Offender
Apparently mechanics are also getting sick.
http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/09/mystery-of-f-22-illnesses-grows/?hpt=hp_t2
http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/09/mystery-of-f-22-illnesses-grows/?hpt=hp_t2
///AMG
Well-Known Member
I flew with the French dudes when I went through VT-7, and they were solid guys. They were hardly feeble, and did as well as we did, generally on a much shorter timeline. Double for the one Spanish dude we had there. He was the only Spanish guy to go through for a number of years, and basically the future of the Spanish Harrier community depended on him doing well. No pressure though
Can't speak to Saudi or Pak, as I never in 1.5 years at NMM saw either type (they train elsewhere), but if you did, it would have only been for a fleeting moment. There was absolutely nothing classified or sensitive in nature at Meridian. Being a tower/approach controller would certainly not have been sensitive, there, or really anywhere else. The information in JFIRE and JCAS has nothing to do with this debate. I think there is better info on wikipedia than either of those documents wrt capabilities of blue aircraft. F-22 and CAS have nothing in common.
Um.... I think I hit a nerve.... Popcorn? Anyone?
I'll humor this with a response
Has it occurred to you that I actually sat down and talked with people about the things that I was interested in and wanted to learn? Is it POSSIBLE for me to glean information from sources other than a military manual? Did I specifically say that I read about the F-22 and CAS? What I said was that I continued to learn about things that were interesting and pertinent to me.
I'll say it again, in very simple language for you. I have not brought up the capabilities of the F-22. My point, through the entire discussion is this;
THE F-22 IS A BASELINE TECHNOLOGY PIECE FOR THE GOVERNMENT AND THE MANUFACTURERS WITH NO ACTUAL BUDGET TO ADHERE TO.
Simple enough?
...Of course dollars and cents are over my head, and much too lofty for me to understand, and it's far too sensitive and classified to speak of such things....
I'll humor this with a response
Has it occurred to you that I actually sat down and talked with people about the things that I was interested in and wanted to learn? Is it POSSIBLE for me to glean information from sources other than a military manual? Did I specifically say that I read about the F-22 and CAS? What I said was that I continued to learn about things that were interesting and pertinent to me.
I'll say it again, in very simple language for you. I have not brought up the capabilities of the F-22. My point, through the entire discussion is this;
THE F-22 IS A BASELINE TECHNOLOGY PIECE FOR THE GOVERNMENT AND THE MANUFACTURERS WITH NO ACTUAL BUDGET TO ADHERE TO.
Simple enough?
...Of course dollars and cents are over my head, and much too lofty for me to understand, and it's far too sensitive and classified to speak of such things....
///AMG
Well-Known Member
Everything you write here is humor, so please continue.
If you were a no kidding JTAC (ie embedded with ground forces, holding the radio, giving talk ons), you would have a rudimentary understanding of what is needed for us to employ weapons in support of ground forces. You would have an understanding of various types of ordnance, their uses, and how best to employ them. Most importantly, you would know how to give us a meaningful talk on, and most efficiently help us help you. None of that even touches the tip of the iceberg of what we are talking about here. To imply that some pilot sat down with you and explained the finer points of strike planning and air-to-air employment is pure BS, and you know it. You can't BS a BS'er brother.
I'm not arguing the budget, or the rights or wrongs of the contract. Bottom line is that it provides amazing capabilities that we need. That's what I care about. If we cant afford it, so be it. Saying that there is no threat out there that could possibly require its level of capability is naive and misinformed. That is all I am arguing. I will bow out of your contract/budget grumblings, because I have nothing to add, and don't care.
...Of course dollars and cents are over my head, and much too lofty for me to understand, and it's far too sensitive and classified to speak of such things....
Clearly I am the one who should have written things in a much simpler way, if you think that was my point. I haven't said a thing about money in this entire thread until now.
You seem to be the only one getting frustrated here (throwing out insults, etc). You seem to want to be taken as an expert. Since you like providing tips for us, I will give you one of my own: when attempting to establish credibility, being liberal with the facts, and greatly exaggerating your personal experience does not tend to accomplish that goal. Being vague with details does not prevent the rest of us from sniffing out the BS in your story.
You should be an attorney with your twisting of words and context. When did the talk shift to giving a meaningful talk-on, ordinance and how to employ them? Never saw THAt come up....
All done here.
Anything for the Fighter Man to make his point, and be right.
THIS is an example of an officer in our military. Such complete awesomeness before you. All hail.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
Outlining the kinds of things being a JTAC gives you insight into, and the things that it absolutely doesn't. You listed being a JTAC as one of the things that somehow gives you insight into this discussion. I was debating that point. Not complicated stuff.
Thanks for the personal attack though. You seem MUCH younger than "almost 40". I feel like there are a lot of other points in your history that don't quite add up though, so diverting attention with personal attacks is pretty much expected as the poser spotlight gets cast onto you. But while we are at it, it's strike fighter, big A, little F. It's a support job, like many others, helping our fine Marines/Soldiers/Airmen/Sailors get home alive and in one piece. I think the stereotype omits this important fact, even if it is good for some laughs. Important distinction. Carry on...
Shouldn't need to, but here we go... But how does one deal with a bully? Honestly.
I listed being a JTAC as an avenue which I used to learn more about the things that were important to me. Reading comprehension is important when attempting to maintain impartiality in an internet discussion. You should re--re-read what I wrote, because I understand what I wrote, and am having to re-re-explain it to you.
Please. Remind me of how old I am again? Since we've met, and all. Tell me what year I was born. I'll wait. Any other assumptions you would like to make?
You can try to cast a "poser" spotlight on me all that you wish, but there are people here who know me, and have met me face to face and have served with me. Should they choose to speak up, that's their choice, but you're certainly not credible when it comes to what I have and have not done in my life, or even how old I am. That would be because we have never met. Obviously.
If you're talking about when when we intercepted over Texas not adding up, well, again, you have no insight into the situation, and have no credibility on which to speak from. And you were not privy to the conversations that occurred off-line. So really, you have idea what you're talking about.
You ARE a poor example of a military officer, and your continued attempt at discrediting me with no facts or information, other than what I have provided exemplifies this. Your desire to browbeat people, and bully them on an internet forum for a difference of opinion exemplifies this, and making assumptions on which you know nothing about exemplifies this.
The only reason that I care enough to reply to this is because I've worked hard for what I have accomplished, am proud of those things, value the relationships that I have made through this forum, and refuse to let some egocentric, feeble, small, insecure internet bully define who or what they think I am based on ignorance and uninformed opinion.
Sorry for the absolute derail.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
It is surprising that you have so much insight into my career and me that you are able to make such a bold statement. If bullying is calmly and rationally explaining my point, while rejecting an onslaught of personal attacks from you, then yes, I have been a terrible bully. You continue to prove my point with your vague and inaccurate explanations of things, continuing personal attacks, and apparent anger. So I have no desire to encourage you to stop. I'll leave that to the mods.
BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
1976.
ryan1234
Desensitized Member
Alright dude.... No need to take shots at John's Officership. We're talking about fighters here and he's a real deal fighter guy who's profession requires him to know this stuff and have a life or death understanding of the application. Hacker is also a very, very experienced fighter dude...and not just fighters, but several different airframes. If you want to have a discussion great, but don't call their Officership into question because they say your background does not make you an expert. It is what it is.
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
It seems to me we'd have a lot more money to spend on F-22s and missile defense (you know, things that are actually national security) if we weren't spending billions a year in places like Iraq and Afghanistan.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
Canassis
I find it pretty hilarious that you are the first one to whip out the "experience" argument, and as soon as some of us tell you what our experience is and why it lends more credence to our argument than yours, you reply with the "Fighter Mafia" ad hominem attacks. Nobody was laying down credentials to bolster their points until you brought the subject up.
It's a pleasure to take tips on, and critiques of, officership from someone with your experience.
I find it pretty hilarious that you are the first one to whip out the "experience" argument, and as soon as some of us tell you what our experience is and why it lends more credence to our argument than yours, you reply with the "Fighter Mafia" ad hominem attacks. Nobody was laying down credentials to bolster their points until you brought the subject up.
It's a pleasure to take tips on, and critiques of, officership from someone with your experience.