5 things airlines won't tell you about weather delays

saxman

saxman

Well-Known Member
Oh geeze, plan on even more passengers with iPhones to give you a weather report, on your next delay...

"If you were a passenger on one of the more than 1,200 flights United Airlines recently canceled, you might have wondered -- particularly after its pilots claimed the carrier was understaffed during the peak travel period, contradicting the airline's explanation that winter storms were to blame for its actions."

Full Story...

http://www.cnn.com/2008/TRAVEL/traveltips/02/12/airline.delays/index.html
 
A weather delay at one airport can cause somewhat of a ripple effect of delays across the nation. Even though your flight is going from MCO to MIA and the skies are clear at both airports, your airplane for the flight may be stuck in ORD cause of a winter storm. This causes the airline to shift aircraft to get flights going on time, but there will still be delays and cancellations when the airline can't accommodate for the delay.

Frankly, I don't like the media trying to tell us news about aviation, most of the time they are wrong, even with their so called experts.

CNN could be right as I am not in an airline yet, but to me, one delay will cause many more delays that day. With ORD being a huge hub for united, I wouldn't be surprised they would have a lot of delays and cancellations there.
 
Delays happen because this nation's air traffic system is overcrowded, underfunded, and pushed to it's limit on a good day.

Attempts to blame airlines are uninformed and pointless.
 
They definitely lie, are you suprised? OCC middle MGMT spends a good portion of the morning reviewing delay codes from the previous day.
 
Maurus said:
Frankly, I don't like the media trying to tell us news about aviation, most of the time they are wrong, even with their so called experts.
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Everything she said seemed pretty plausible. I mean who here hasn't been on a USAir flight that was delayed due to weather even though the entire country was severe clear?
 
E_Dawg said:
Delays happen because this nation's air traffic system is overcrowded, underfunded, and pushed to it's limit on a good day.

Attempts to blame airlines are uninformed and pointless.
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Actually our ATC system is just fine. We have the best system in the world. Currently the airlines are trying to cripple our system by instating user fees. The crowding has come from the airlines at their own airports. At the major airports general aviation and business aviation only take up 2-4% of all the flights. The congestion rests in the airlines hands at these airports.

Anyway our system is the best in the world and is proven because of how many of the worlds aircraft in in the U.S alone. I believe the last numbers I saw showed the U.S housing about 70% of the worlds aircraft. Allowing free use of our ATC system and airspace is a huge contributer to our success in aviation.

Now the FAA funding is fine, the only thing that needs raised are gas taxes to help with inflation. Our countries system will go downhill once we start anything with user fees.
 
there are so many problems i have with this article, that i cant even type straight...

emailed the writer to give him some of my unsolicited thoughts :D
 
Maurus said:
Actually our ATC system is just fine. We have the best system in the world. Currently the airlines are trying to cripple our system by instating user fees. The crowding has come from the airlines at their own airports. At the major airports general aviation and business aviation only take up 2-4% of all the flights. The congestion rests in the airlines hands at these airports.
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After having been grounded in CMH due to an approach radar outage in MEM.....I'm gonna disagree here. We're using 70s technology in the 21st century, and it's not working. If the ATC system were updated, it wouldn't be as overcrowded. Not only that, but you'd save gas since there would be more direct routings to more places. What's more efficient, having a controller call ahead to facilities to see if you can get direct to a fix in your flight plan or having a computer okay the request by checking the routing against other aircraft in the air at the time? We might have "the best in the world," but the fact is it's outdated and could be MUCH better. As for congestion, blame the free market as much as the airlines. If they can make money on a route, why shouldn't they do it? It's like blaming the trucking companies for congestion on a busy interstate. What does the DOT do in that case? They widen the road.
 
kellwolf said:
After having been grounded in CMH due to an approach radar outage in MEM.....I'm gonna disagree here. We're using 70s technology in the 21st century, and it's not working. If the ATC system were updated, it wouldn't be as overcrowded. Not only that, but you'd save gas since there would be more direct routings to more places. What's more efficient, having a controller call ahead to facilities to see if you can get direct to a fix in your flight plan or having a computer okay the request by checking the routing against other aircraft in the air at the time? We might have "the best in the world," but the fact is it's outdated and could be MUCH better.
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I see you are kinda describing "Free Flight". Sure our radar is outdated, but it takes a lot of time to come up with a new system. The money has been there for the research and the FAA hasn't found anything worth while to implement yet. So far the closest thing is the new requirement for ADS-B on all aircraft by I think 2020.

kellwolf said:
As for congestion, blame the free market as much as the airlines. If they can make money on a route, why shouldn't they do it? It's like blaming the trucking companies for congestion on a busy interstate. What does the DOT do in that case? They widen the road.
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The airlines are blaming GA and Business Aviation for the delays. I say the airlines do it to themselves. Sure it makes sense to make money by adding routes.

The airlines need to get some new hubs. What percentage of the passengers that go though Atlanta do you think actually have their final destination being Atlanta? By spreading out the Hubs the congestion will spread out. Sure it would cost a lot of money to create new hubs, but if congestion is a real problem for delays and the airlines are losing money, it might be worth spending some money for a new hub or two where the flights wont be delayed as much. Over time a new hub project would mostly pay for itself with the reduction of delays.

Sure the FAA would have something to say about getting the new hubs, but I believe it might be the fastest way to reduce congestion because a new ATC system will take many many years to complete.

It really is just my thoughts and a hub project may not even be possible cause of the FAA or other government entity.
 
Maurus said:
The airlines need to get some new hubs. What percentage of the passengers that go though Atlanta do you think actually have their final destination being Atlanta? By spreading out the Hubs the congestion will spread out. Sure it would cost a lot of money to create new hubs, but if congestion is a real problem for delays and the airlines are losing money, it might be worth spending some money for a new hub or two where the flights wont be delayed as much. Over time a new hub project would mostly pay for itself with the reduction of delays.
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Depends on the hub, really. ATL is one extreme, MEM might be another. ATC delays in MEM are a rarity, but in ATL they're almost a daily occurance.

This is also why I think if DAL/NWA merged MEM would still be around. Makes a good reliever hub for an oversaturated airport.
 
kellwolf said:
Depends on the hub, really. ATL is one extreme, MEM might be another. ATC delays in MEM are a rarity, but in ATL they're almost a daily occurance.

This is also why I think if DAL/NWA merged MEM would still be around. Makes a good reliever hub for an oversaturated airport.
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One of the reasons I don't like that US Air pulled out of Pittsburgh. I hear so many passengers telling me how wonderful and stress-free life was when they didn't have to be delayed in Philly. Having flown into PIT myself many times, I definitely can see where they're coming from. Its a virtual ghost town now, and that for a class B airport!
 
Maurus said:
Actually our ATC system is just fine. We have the best system in the world. Currently the airlines are trying to cripple our system by instating user fees. The crowding has come from the airlines at their own airports. At the major airports general aviation and business aviation only take up 2-4% of all the flights. The congestion rests in the airlines hands at these airports.

Anyway our system is the best in the world and is proven because of how many of the worlds aircraft in in the U.S alone. I believe the last numbers I saw showed the U.S housing about 70% of the worlds aircraft. Allowing free use of our ATC system and airspace is a huge contributer to our success in aviation.

Now the FAA funding is fine, the only thing that needs raised are gas taxes to help with inflation. Our countries system will go downhill once we start anything with user fees.
Click to expand...

I disagree for one reason: I figure if the plane can handle the weather, but a delay is forced upon us anyways (inevitably because of separation issues,) the problem is the air traffic system.

This is not a chop on controllers in any way! It's an observation that if we can get more planes in the air on poor weather days, there would be less weather delays.
 
E_Dawg said:
I disagree for one reason: I figure if the plane can handle the weather, but a delay is forced upon us anyways (inevitably because of separation issues,) the problem is the air traffic system.

This is not a chop on controllers in any way! It's an observation that if we can get more planes in the air on poor weather days, there would be less weather delays.
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Exactly. EWR is one of many examples of this.

Right now the FAA site shows an 85 minute average wheels-up-time delay to get into EWR for everything within 1800 miles plus Canada. The reason is listed as the usual one: "WEATHER/WIND."

The current wind at EWR is 280/18G24. 22L or 29, anything can land in that. So the real problem is not "WEATHER/WIND" but traffic compression as it comes into TRACON's airspace.

This ATC system is horribly behind the times.
 
Maurus said:
Actually our ATC system is just fine. We have the best system in the world . . . The crowding has come from the airlines at their own airports . . . The congestion rests in the airlines hands at these airports.

Anyway our system is the best in the world and is proven because of how many of the worlds aircraft in in the U.S alone. I believe the last numbers I saw showed the U.S housing about 70% of the worlds aircraft.
Click to expand...

Parts of our system are very, very far from being the best in the world.

Every day at the same airports, there is the same pattern in the afternoon. First a wheels-up-time delay starts because international traffic from Europe and Asia gets priority and when too many flights are coming in and TRACON can't space them close enough, the stuff departing from nearby airports has to wait it out on the ground. Then it gets so bad that for a little while, there is a complete groundstop of everything not yet airborne trying to get in. Then new wheels-up-times are issued and the traffic departs late and arrives even later.

Case in point: NYC. The TRACON has been under the gun from the FAA for too many instances of traffic getting too close together, slightly less than the 3 mile minimum. So the TRACON's response to the FAA getting angry about that is to no longer get close to the 3 mile minimum, and instead use 4-5 miles separation. The tower can take more arrivals per hour than TRACON can. The issue is not actually the arrival runway! It is TRACON's inability to send enough airplanes per hour to the arrival runway because they are afraid of getting in more trouble in case two planes get less than 3 miles apart.

The TRACON and tower cannot even meet in the same room with one another with the FAA.

That is not the best in the world.
 
The system as a whole is the best in the world. Not just taking it piece by piece here.

Anyway this is yet another example where the airlines could spread out the hubs a little more. Less flights to an airport will always need congestion. Last thing they need is to send passengers currently in CLE to ATL to go to LAX. Dose it happen? Sure it does. I can't count the number of times my parents had to go to an out of the way hub to just get to their final destination. Same with other friends. Like I said how many people fly into ATL that have their final destination at ATL? The Airlines could always spread out their own congestion that causes ATC to work the way the do. Instead they put the blame of congestion on others. What do the airlines expect when they send so many aircraft to these hubs.
 
Maurus said:
The system as a whole is the best in the world. Not just taking it piece by piece here.

Anyway this is yet another example where the airlines could spread out the hubs a little more. Less flights to an airport will always need congestion. Last thing they need is to send passengers currently in CLE to ATL to go to LAX. Dose it happen? Sure it does. I can't count the number of times my parents had to go to an out of the way hub to just get to their final destination. Same with other friends. Like I said how many people fly into ATL that have their final destination at ATL? The Airlines could always spread out their own congestion that causes ATC to work the way the do. Instead they put the blame of congestion on others. What do the airlines expect when they send so many aircraft to these hubs.
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This is where you'll see some of the VLJs taking air taxi services into new dimensions. They'll have one person order a flight from CLE-SAN, post the flight on their website and let other people hitch a ride as well, each time having the price lower for each person that signs on. Dayjet in florida is an example of this, however I think they're limited to that one state.
 
sorrygottarunway said:
Dayjet in florida is an example of this, however I think they're limited to that one state.
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Dayjet has expanded to serve most of the far Southeast. This just exemplifies the frustration with commercial travel and that people are tired of having their time wasted waiting in long lines, etc.

DayPorts

Montgomery Rgnl (Dannelly Field) Montgomery, AL. Boca Raton Boca Raton, FL. Gainesville Rgnl Gainesville, FL. Lakeland Linder Rgnl Lakeland, FL. Opa Locka Miami, FL. Naples Muni Naples, FL. Pensacola Rgnl Pensacola, FL. Tallahassee Rgnl Tallahassee, FL. Macon Downtown Macon, GA. Savannah/Hilton Head Intl Savannah,GA.

DayStops

South Alabama Rgnl At Bill Benton Field Andalusia/Opp, AL. Auburn-Opelika Robert G. Pitts Auburn, AL. Brewton Muni Brewton, AL. Dothan Rgnl Dothan, AL. Enterprise Muni Enterprise, AL. H L Sonny Callahan Fairhope, AL. Jack Edwards Gulf Shores, AL. Mobile Rgnl Mobile, AL. Mobile Downtown Mobile,AL. Monroe County Monroeville, AL. Craig Field Selma, AL. Apalachicola Muni Apalachicola, FL. Bartow Muni Bartow, FL. Hernando County Brooksville, FL. Flagler County Bunnell, FL. Bob Sikes Crestview, FL. Cross City Cross City, FL. Crystal River Crystal River, FL. Daytona Beach Intl Daytona Beach, FL. Deland Muni-Sidney H Taylor Field Deland, FL. Destin-Fort Walton Beach Destin, FL. Dunnellon/Marion Co & Park Of Commerce Dunnellon, FL. Fernandina Beach Muni Fernandina Beach, FL. Fort Lauderdale Executive Fort Lauderdale, FL. Southwest Florida Intl Fort Myers, FL. Page Field Fort Myers, FL. St Lucie County Intl Fort Pierce, FL. Immokalee Immokalee, FL. Craig Muni Jacksonville, FL. Cecil Field Jacksonville, FL. Key West Intl Key West, FL. Lake City Muni Lake City, FL. Leesburg Intl Leesburg, FL. The Florida Keys Marathon Marathon, FL. Marco Island Marco Island, FL. Marianna Muni Marianna, FL. Melbourne Intl Melbourne, FL. Kendall-Tamiami Executive Miami, FL. New Smyrna Beach Muni New Smyrna Beach, FL. Ocala Intl-Jim Taylor Field Ocala, FL. Kissimmee Gateway Orlando, FL. Orlando Sanford Intl Orlando, FL. Executive Orlando, FL. Palatka Muni - Lt. Kay Larkin Field Palatka, FL. Panama City-Bay Co Intl Panama City, FL. Perry-Foley Perry, FL. Pompano Beach Airpark Pompano Beach, FL. Charlotte County Punta Gorda, FL. Sarasota/Bradenton Intl Sarasota/Bradenton, FL. Sebring Rgnl Sebring, FL. St Augustine St Augustine, FL. St Petersburg-Clearwater Intl St Petersburg-Clearwater, FL. Witham Field Stuart, FL. Vandenberg Tampa, FL. Space Coast Rgnl Titusville, FL. Venice Muni Venice, FL. Vero Beach Muni Vero Beach, FL. North Palm Beach County General Aviation West Palm Beach, FL. Williston Muni Williston, FL. Winter Haven's Gilbert Winter Haven, FL. Zephyrhills Muni Zephyrhills, FL. Southwest Georgia Rgnl Albany, GA. Augusta Rgnl At Bush Field Augusta, GA. Decatur County Industrial Air Park Bainbridge, GA. Baxley Muni Baxley, GA. Brunswick Golden Isles Brunswick, GA. Malcolm Mc Kinnon Brunswick, GA. Columbus Metropolitan Columbus, GA. Douglas Muni Douglas, GA. Fitzgerald Muni Fitzgerald, GA. Jesup-Wayne County Jesup, GA. Moultrie Muni Moultrie, GA. St Marys St Marys, GA. Thomasville Rgnl Thomasville, GA. Henry Tift Myers Tifton, GA. Valdosta Rgnl Valdosta, GA. Vidalia Rgnl Vidalia, GA. Waycross-Ware County Waycross, GA. Trent Lott Intl Pascagoula, MS. Charleston Afb/Intl Charleston, SC. Charleston Executive Charleston, SC. Columbia Metropolitan Columbia, SC. Florence Rgnl Florence, SC. Hilton Head Hilton Head Island, SC. Myrtle Beach Intl Myrtle Beach, SC.
 
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