3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing abou

[TUCKnTRUCK]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

What I saw was the plane didn't stall until after the crew was trying to deal with it. It didn't look like it was recoverable after it finally did stall. Could you recreate the conditions that led up to the stall in sim and give those to another colgan crew?

The Q is a funny bird... there are those with engineering degrees that speculate that the prop wash over the wing from the props may actually allow the airplane to fly... while stalled. The unfortunate part of this, is that the Outboard area, where your controls are, is still stalled. The result is a stall the progresses in the wrong direction (tips in) causing the airplane to stall much more like a swept wing jet than a t-prop. They have actually had to adjust the stall profiles designed into the stick shaker/pusher math. Our shaker at full power activates at 1.05 Vs0.. not the normal 1.2... and as I said before, was not certified to the pusher... so who knows what would happen?

Combine the washed out, stalled out ailerons, HUGE yaw forces with large power applications, and bad control of the stall over the wing... you are in for a real mess if it goes.


You can't recreate it in a sim, because the sim is not programed to actually represent a full stall, and any flight crew put in the sim is expecting everything and anything. They are way on the ball, even if exhausted most pilots in the sim tend to hyper focus... and respond well before a situation develops. Unless you propose we fly a crew around for 6 hours a day, weeks on end waiting for a moment to strike.

 

[surreal1221]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

Why would they need a class on it if it's so similar? When was the last time you heard a student pilot calling out V1... V2... Rotate... or whatever it is you say. When was the last time you heard someone tell a student pilot they should take over the controls if they think their CFI is making a critical error?

Dude.

I'd have quit about two pages ago.

You're so far out of left field it's not even comical.

CRM exists in the GA flight training environment. The student relies on the instructor and the instructor relies on the student to follow through. The instructor is monitoring the student constantly. The student utilizes his resources, of his crew - the instructor, as required for the task at hand. It's that simple.

Now, as far as 121, 135 or a structure Part 91 CRM training program goes - I'd go ahead and be quiet and listen to those who might actually have an idea of what they're talking about.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

You're so far out of left field it's not even comical.

It is comical. I'm wondering if this guy isn't just having a little fun with all of us.

 

[Killtron2000]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

You know, I was actually trying to be extremely well intentioned and point out that even though you have never sat through a fancy airline CRM course, you probably have pretty good CRM skills, but you just don't fully realize it. I still think that, but I know now you really have no clue as to what CRM really is. CRM is NOT just dealing with another crewmember in the cockpit. If you think that, you are dead wrong. Break it down... CRM is the management of the resources available to the crew.

If you look at one of the best examples of CRM (and the man still preaches CRM today), CA Al Haynes had a sim instructor on the flight deck who was NOT a member of the original crew. Why is this... because he used and managed the resources available at the time.

Would you look at things differently if it was called Cockpit Resourse Management?



WRONG!

ATC is probably one of the biggest resources you have available to you as a crewmember, single pilot (you are still a crewmember) included.

I don't think you answered anything in the post you were responding too.


Where did I say ATC was unimportant? You totally missed it.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

you said you didn't consider ATC part of crm, when in fact it is a huge portion of CRM.

 

[ctab5060X]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

I don't think you answered anything in the post you were responding too.

Didn't see a question to be answer in what I quoted.

And you didn't answer the question I asked. Please, it is an easy question.

Where did I say ATC was unimportant? You totally missed it.

Didn't miss it, you never said it.

You did, however, say that you didn't consider ATC to be a part of "crew resources".

 

[Killtron2000]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

The Q is a funny bird... there are those with engineering degrees that speculate that the prop wash over the wing from the props may actually allow the airplane to fly... while stalled. The unfortunate part of this, is that the Outboard area, where your controls are, is still stalled. The result is a stall the progresses in the wrong direction (tips in) causing the airplane to stall much more like a swept wing jet than a t-prop. They have actually had to adjust the stall profiles designed into the stick shaker/pusher math. Our shaker at full power activates at 1.05 Vs0.. not the normal 1.2... and as I said before, was not certified to the pusher... so who knows what would happen?

Combine the washed out, stalled out ailerons, HUGE yaw forces with large power applications, and bad control of the stall over the wing... you are in for a real mess if it goes.


You can't recreate it in a sim, because the sim is not programed to actually represent a full stall, and any flight crew put in the sim is expecting everything and anything. They are way on the ball, even if exhausted most pilots in the sim tend to hyper focus... and respond well before a situation develops. Unless you propose we fly a crew around for 6 hours a day, weeks on end waiting for a moment to strike.

Where do you think the training program went wrong if they can't actually train them for stall recovery? Did it not emphasize watching the airspeed? I can't say I've never looked at my airspeed indicator and been surprised but those mistakes although not huge ones are my complacency not the fault of my instructors.

 

[Killtron2000]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

Would you look at things differently if it was called Cockpit Resourse Management?

That would more aptly describe what a single pilot operation does.

you said you didn't consider ATC part of crm, when in fact it is a huge portion of CRM.

I said I didn't consider them a "crew resource" not that they aren't a resource at all and not part of CRM.

Didn't see a question to be answer in what I quoted.

And you didn't answer the question I asked. Please, it is an easy question.



Didn't miss it, you never said it.

You did, however, say that you didn't consider ATC to be a part of "crew resources".

Right crew meaning the people actually flying the airplane.

If ATC can actualy help with something I call them up it's a tremendous resource but it's not exactly like having another pilot there. This tangent to the discussion stemmed from what to look for in the way of CRM when you do a sim evaluation and a part of that is coordinating with the guy next to you and most pilots can learn to be effective at that but they may have very little experience with it in a jet so as was pointed out earlier they do dumb things and it's not fair to judge them on that since they don't know any better not that they can't learn. If you were to compare them to airline pilots in that regard of course they are going to come up short so it's not a fair comparison.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

Where do you think the training program went wrong if they can't actually train them for stall recovery? Did it not emphasize watching the airspeed? I can't say I've never looked at my airspeed indicator and been surprised but those mistakes although not huge ones are my complacency not the fault of my instructors.

Are you for real?

You are speaking and challenging from a position of absolutely no credible experience.

You have never seen a 121 training environment. You have never flown a similar airplane. Never dealt with energy management in something weighing 65,000lbs.

I have tried to explain it to you, but you seem incapable of understanding simple 121 concepts.

I know you don't want to work at Colgan... but if the oppertumity presents, please don't come here. you won't fit.

Keep in mind.. the 1900 type certificate states minimum crew ......1... crew=1. CRM. CREW(1) resource management.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

:rotfl::rotfl:

Oh God. It's like a slow train wreck.

More! More I say!
:beer:

 

[Killtron2000]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

Dude.

I'd have quit about two pages ago.

You're so far out of left field it's not even comical.

CRM exists in the GA flight training environment. The student relies on the instructor and the instructor relies on the student to follow through. The instructor is monitoring the student constantly. The student utilizes his resources, of his crew - the instructor, as required for the task at hand. It's that simple.

Now, as far as 121, 135 or a structure Part 91 CRM training program goes - I'd go ahead and be quiet and listen to those who might actually have an idea of what they're talking about.

Usually I stop reading posts as soon as I hit a statement that suggests I should just trust the majority opinion. I have no idea if you made a point or not with the rest but I doubt it added anything since you're probably someone who doesn't think for himself.

 

[ctab5060X]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

That would more aptly describe what a single pilot operation does.

Exactly what I thought. You realize that Cockpit Resource Managment and Crew Resource Managment are the exact same thing, right? Somehow I think the answer to that is no.

Crew is actually a better discriptor because it "allows" for resources that are outside the cockpit and available for use by the crew. It has no bearing on if you are single pilot or otherwise.

 

[Killtron2000]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

Are you for real?

You are speaking and challenging from a position of absolutely no credible experience.

You have never seen a 121 training environment. You have never flown a similar airplane. Never dealt with energy management in something weighing 65,000lbs.

I have tried to explain it to you, but you seem incapable of understanding simple 121 concepts.

I know you don't want to work at Colgan... but if the oppertumity presents, please don't come here. you won't fit.

Keep in mind.. the 1900 type certificate states minimum crew ......1... crew=1. CRM. CREW(1) resource management.

You said you suspect the training was inadequate. Then you say the simulator can't even recreate this scenario. That's hardly the fault of the training program itself. When will you admit this pilot got complacent?

I knew I didn't want to work for colgan 5 seconds after meeting your boss.

 

[Killtron2000]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

Exactly what I thought. You realize that Cockpit Resource Managment and Crew Resource Managment are the exact same thing, right? Somehow I think the answer to that is no.

Crew is actually a better discriptor because it "allows" for resources that are outside the cockpit and available for use by the crew. It has no bearing on if you are single pilot or otherwise.

If it's the exact same thing then why don't GA pilot do it well right from the start? I would have no idea what call outs to make or what the captains and the FOs individual responsibilities are in a CRJ cockpit. If you were to compare my CRM in a CRJ with someone with even a few hours of experience it wouldn't be a fair comparison because they would be so much better at it not that I couldn't at their level after a few hours of experience.

 

[adreamer]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

You said you suspect the training was inadequate. Then you say the simulator can't even recreate this scenario. That's hardly the fault of the training program itself.

Well, Killtron, training program has a lot of facets. Simulator is only part of it. Simulator has its own limitations.

When will you admit this pilot got complacent?

...Just a friendly suggestion, you might burn down few networking bridges.

 

[ctab5060X]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

If it's the exact same thing then why don't GA pilot do it well right from the start?

Maybe because CRM is something that develops and matures as a pilot gains experience. Just like good decision making skills. Funny, CRM plays a huge role in that as well.

I would have no idea what call outs to make or what the captains and the FOs individual responsibilities are in a CRJ cockpit.

Since you must have missed this...

What you are talking about (callouts etc) are simply procedures that you learn, just like you learn to pull the carb heat on when you pull the power back in a small Cessna. No different.

If you were to compare my CRM in a CRJ with someone with even a few hours of experience it wouldn't be a fair comparison because they would be so much better at it not that I couldn't at their level after a few hours of experience.

Why does it matter what airplane you are in. CRM has nothing to do with the type of airplane you are flying. It deals with how you handle the resources available to you in order to make good informed decisions regarding the operation of the airplane. CRM is about communication, not procedures (ie callouts, flows, profiles, etc.).

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

I knew I didn't want to work for colgan 5 seconds after meeting your boss.

Maybe if you actually did research, you would know that you did not actually meet my boss. He never was.

Colgan chose a training program which did not accuratly represent the actions of the airplane. Bombardier never decided to pull any hard data on what would happen. Suddenly we now have additional training to cover pusher activation, fighting it, and recovery from. If this was well covered in trainng we wouldn't have to go through this add on training.

Complacency is not what I would call it. If they were talking about icing conditions, they were obviously paying attention to "some" of what was going on. What you don't understand is that this airplane is not a 172. You can't just set an rpm and expect the plane to settle at a known speed. I have flown approaches that require flight idle in excess of 3 minutes. We have issuses maintaining proper oil temperatures in descents because we are at such a low power setting. Focusing on ice, configuration, and navigation can cause omission of instruments. Guess what's really easy to do when you first switch to a glass cockpit with tapes? Why does cessna, eclipse, garmin have and require extra training for glass cockpits? Why was there not a SINGLE scan technique covered for the new, combined information format we were switching to? Not even a tip, just " you'll figure it out" after which you spend 90% of your time on auto pilot never developing a scan.

Hazardous attitudes, lack of experience, crm, ADM, pilot technique, operational concerns are all subjects you train. When the training program leaves out several key areas, then it is a faulty program.

When will you admit you really have no idea what your talking about?

 

[mwflyer]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

It is comical. I'm wondering if this guy isn't just having a little fun with all of us.

He is. Somebody said it before, killtron just likes attention, even if its negative, so long as somebody is paying attention to him. I have a hard time believing he is truly this dense, and refuses to listen to anybody.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

I would hope he doesn't think his sn will afford him ananomity at every level. I would also hope that he understands, while I work at colgan that doesn't mean I don't have a lot of contacts at other places. I'm not the only one with these contacts either.

Airline hiring is a pretty small group of people. Words get passed around

 

[derg]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

Aww, no need for threats now. Basically, I figure it's like this, when the lightbulb finally turns on, he's going realize where he was wrong and be just as persistent as we are trying to explain where the logic failed.