31 Years too old?

LoadMasterC141

LoadMasterC141

Well-Known Member
I come from a long lineage of Military Pilots and always wanted to continue it. After High School, I joined the AF and became a C-141 Loadmaster. After 4 years, I left to get a degree and go back as an officer and pilot. During my tenure in college, my eyesight slowly driveled away to a horrible –3.00 Diopters(Corrected to 20/20 with Contacts). At the time, the military was not granting waivers for laser surgery, so I was out and miserable. To be honest, I would have stayed a Loadmaster had I known I could not fly.

Instead of playing it smart, I took my 3.94 community college GPA and got delusions of grandeur and got myself into Cornell University to study Psychology. Even with the GI bill, I found myself working long hours as a nighttime tractor trailer driver to pay for it all. I ended up graduating with a 1.96 GPA (Yes it hurts me too). After realizing Psychology was interesting but not satisfying enough to go to a doctorate level, I ended up in a career field that I started paying for my expensive school with.

So here I am today, a 31-year-old logistics analyst with a wife, no kids, a $200K Mortgage, and a $70K a year job I like simply for the $70K a year. All I have ever dreamed of is becoming a pilot. I left that dream kicking and screaming like a little kid not getting his way when the military option fell through.

My wife, being the wonderful supporting person she is, has said numerous times that I should go back and do what makes me happy, no matter the cost. So now I am considering it.

I have about 60 hours in single engines (Mostly 152, but some Tomahawk, Mooney, and 172) from years ago, and about a dozen or so takeoffs and landings in a 141 simulator ;). I know I have a knack for flying. My initial thought is to head to the local FBO here in Temple, TX and finish my private training, and maybe instrument too. This way I could keep my job and my house, for the time being.

From that point, I’ll need to nix the house I guess, and my Beemer tooL, suck up another large loan, and head to a big school like ATP to finish out.

Questions arise though…..

1) Am I too old? Will it hurt my chances walking up to a major airline 8 years or so from now, pushing 40, asking for a job? Has anyone been down this path at my age that can give personal feedback?
2) Even though it was a tough college, and I am personally proud I even made it through competing against rich kids with nothing better to do, how hard is that GPA going to hurt?
3) My eyesight is not even close to 20/20 uncorrected (Correct it is). In the military, this was my showstopper. How bad is it in civvy street?
4) Is it feasible to work slowly over a long period of time, keeping my current job, at local flight schools?
5) Should I look into alternative flight employment outside of the airlines? IE Corporate, Cargo, etc……..
6) Any other considerations I should take into account that I am missing?

I realize this is long-winded, but wanted to paint an accurate picture for those that want to respond. Thanks so much in advance for taking the time to do so.
 
Here is my take. You have a dream. Keep your job, get your private, join an organization like the civil air patrol, keep flying and work on your ratings(maybe up to cfi) and make aviation a PART of your life.

An airline career will cost you a ton of cash and mean you will have to make some big lifestyle changes. Is that really what you want?
 
Come on up here to KROC and we'll get that PPL knocked out!

Seriously though... I tend to be with the follow your dream crowd... especially since you have no kids. As long as your wife's cool with it, go for it. Material possesions don't mean that much. Happiness comes from living and doing, not having and possessing.

However... learn more about what it really means to have an airline career... maybe you want to do some other sort of flying instead. The world of aviation is pretty big.
 
"1) Am I too old?"

It will be a setback. The future is too much of an unknown to really say more than that. I wouldn't let your age, as a single factor, stop you.

"how hard is that GPA going to hurt?"

I'd say very little. You are able to check the degree box on the app. That's a big deal and the main thing. Be prepared to discuss it in a positive way at an interview.

"3) My eyesight is not even close to 20/20 uncorrected"

Shouldn't make any difference as long as it's correctable.

"4) Is it feasible to work slowly over a long period of time, keeping my current job, at local flight schools?"

I don't know. I hate to see you drop a 70K a year job and regret it in six months. Would your experience level make it easy to get another job at that level? How much attention/time can you put towards flying and say with your current job? If you could fly three or four times a week and keep your job, I'd say your stupid to quit just to attend a "fast track" academy. Have you thought about trading the Beemer in on a Cessna 150?

"5) Should I look into alternative flight employment outside of the airlines? IE Corporate, Cargo, etc……"

Yeah, but getting back to 70K, either Corporate, Fracs, or Regionals is gonna take a while.

"6) Any other considerations I should take into account that I am missing?"

Beware of the "grass is greener" syndrome. Like I said, it will take a long time to make 70K in aviation. Can you live on half that? If the answer is no, then forget it. How important are kids, the Beemer, and a nice house? Are you willing to trade these things for a job in aviation?

Trust me, after a while, it's just a job. For me, it's a good job, and I wouldn't want to do anything else, but it's still just a job. I'd hate to see you making 30K in three years as a second year regional F/O and realizing it's a lot more work and a lot less fun now, wishing you had your old job back.

I guess I'm a pessimist at heart.
 
Flying airplanes is great. Flying airplanes for a living sucks! Oh, you might enjoy it for a year or two, but eventually the realities of the profession will hit you: Long days, short overnights, working nights weekends and holidays, living out of a suitcase 3 or 4 days a week, missing important times with your wife and children, no job security, management constantly trying cut pay and benefits...the list goes on and on.

My advice? Get your private pilot license, join a local flying club, and fly for the sheer pleasure of flying. Fly when and where you like, not at the demands of an employer. Get involved with a local EAA Chapter. Join Civil Air Patrol. Get involved with Young Eagle or Aviation Explorers. Earn your instructor certificate and do some flight instruction in the evenings or weekends. If you really feel the need for speed, then shell out a few hundred bucks to go through one of those Air Combat or Airline Simulator experiences.

To answer your question, you are not too old to pursue this career. But I would say that you are too far along life's path to change your lifestyle now. Your wife may be supportive, but does she REALLY understand what you (and her) will be getting into?

If you were single I might have said different. But you've got a family to take care of. It is the height of selfishness to chuck everything so that you can go and play with the airplanes. Work hard in your present career, do well and maybe you cant retire early. Build your ratings and hours along the way. Maybe in 20 or 25 years when the kids are grown and the mortgage is paid off, you can spend your last few working years flying for an airline. Believe me when I say, a few years will be enough.
 
skydog said:
Flying airplanes is great. Flying airplanes for a living sucks! Oh, you might enjoy it for a year or two, but eventually the realities of the profession will hit you: Long days, short overnights, working nights weekends and holidays, living out of a suitcase 3 or 4 days a week, missing important times with your wife and children, no job security, management constantly trying cut pay and benefits...the list goes on and on.

My advice? Get your private pilot license, join a local flying club, and fly for the sheer pleasure of flying. Fly when and where you like, not at the demands of an employer. Get involved with a local EAA Chapter. Join Civil Air Patrol. Get involved with Young Eagle or Aviation Explorers. Earn your instructor certificate and do some flight instruction in the evenings or weekends. If you really feel the need for speed, then shell out a few hundred bucks to go through one of those Air Combat or Airline Simulator experiences.

To answer your question, you are not too old to pursue this career. But I would say that you are too far along life's path to change your lifestyle now. Your wife may be supportive, but does she REALLY understand what you (and her) will be getting into?

If you were single I might have said different. But you've got a family to take care of. It is the height of selfishness to chuck everything so that you can go and play with the airplanes. Work hard in your present career, do well and maybe you cant retire early. Build your ratings and hours along the way. Maybe in 20 or 25 years when the kids are grown and the mortgage is paid off, you can spend your last few working years flying for an airline. Believe me when I say, a few years will be enough.
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Just wondering... what would you do instead (career-wise) if you could give it all up today?
 
You're not too old to make it to the majors if you start now. Will you make 777 capt at American? Probably not, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't go for it.

Is it feasible to do it slowly? Sure. Advisable? No. Seniority is everything at the airlines, and the quicker you get on the seniority list someplace, the better off you'll be.

Your eyesight is significantly better than mine (-5.25 OD/OS), and I can hold a 1st Class medical; it won't be a problem for you.

Your GPA won't help, but it won't hurt. Airlines want to see a degree, they don't care what in or from where. A 1.96 from Cornell is like a 3.2 from my alma mater, it's all relative.

You should finish your PPL with your local FBO and do some flying on your own. You might find that you prefer being a weekend pilot anyway, and your income would make that certainly feasible.

Your wife needs to understand just how significant a financial sacrifice you're talking here. The webmaster of this site has been at his major airline for 8-ish years now, and with the concessions he and his fellow pilots have been forced to make, he's making under $100k/yr now (I *think*), and he's been at this for what, 13 years total? You won't see that level of income for quite some time. Average CFI pay is $12-18k, after shelling out ~$50-60k for training. First year pay as a regional FO is ~$20k, and that's after a year or two of flight instructing to build experience. We're talking eligibility for food stamps for the next few years here. Will your wife really be cool with that? She needs to register over at http://www.pilotfamilies.com/, the companion site to this one, to talk to the wives of pilots and pilots-to-be to get an understanding of what's really involved from a spousal point of view.
 
Some good advice that I have heard before. My old neighbor is a 767 Captain for UsAir and has said many of the same things regarding the drag that airline flying can be.

As far as being away from home, working lots of hours--I do that now. I live out of a suitcase traveling the country. The weekends I work (Usually 2 a month) earn me no time off during the week.

Material possessions? I was just kiddin about the Beemer. Its’ nice and all, but I did’nt mind driving my ’89 Nissan 240SX for the last 13 years either.

I guess I just don’t want to be a Clark Griswold at 70 years old, explaining my food preservatives job to my grandchildren. Nor do I want to wither away tapping away at a keyboard.

I see that flying could get boring, like anything else, but is it greener? That is all subjective so it is obviously hard to tell for sure.

For now, getting the PPL will be a first step. I’ll take it from there. Maybe I would be happy doing it for fun, becoming a CFI and training others on the weekends, getting a share in a small plane, etc…..We’ll have to see. I know since the day I sat in the jumpseat of the 141 for a takeoff and landing, I wanted to fly jets though………
 
No, you're not. I'm 44. ERAU grad, zero flight time. I will be starting my training this summer at a local FBO and then transfer to ATP in either ATL, DFW, JAX or STU. My plans are to get on with a regional and then evaluate where I am at the 3 yr and 5 yr levels. From that point, I'll make a decision to either stay with the company that I am with or pursue the majors (pax) or box haulers (UPS/FedEx). My wife is a school teacher w/two M.S. degrees, so I'm not worried about our earning potential.

Also, we have a 24 month old little boy and a 2/2, 2-story townhome in Ft. Pierce, FL. A lease pymt could pay the mortgage there and part of a mortgage on a new house say in NC or TN, or we could just sell it and start over.

I say go for it. Do the research, though. Who knows, maybe one day you'll be my FO.:)

Best wishes & blue skies.


atp

PS--Although I may only have 13-15 years to fly as a professional pilot, it'll be the best 15 years of my life.
 
My wife is a school teacher w/two M.S. degrees, so I'm not worried about our earning potential.

Best wishes & blue skies.

My wife has the same profession and level of education. Good to know. Thanks for well wishing..!
 
Too old ?? Nope. Im 33 just and just started. I know there are a few guys on here who started flying in thier early 30s and are now FOs with regional carriers. Welcome and good luck :)
 
LoadMasterC141 said:
I see that flying could get boring, like anything else, but is it greener? That is all subjective so it is obviously hard to tell for sure.
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I have now spent about 9 months with an airline. I'll be honest, I'm already looking forward to the next step. It was fun at first but now with a back to back 3-day and 2-day looming just 8 hours from now (I have to get up at 3:30AM) I'm not looking forward to going back to work and time away from the significant other and dog, just to come back again with 2 days off, then a 4-day.

If I could do it all over again, I would like to get a degree in something that's worthwhile and I would LOVE to make $70k/yr right now. Right now, we're living in a 863 sq. ft. apartment that costs over $1,000 a month. We couldn't purchase anything worthwhile in this area because our incomes don't come to but $50,000/yr combined, and we haven't been able to save much after all the moving around we did, searching for "that job" (you do know you'll probably have to move, don't you?). When I go away on a trip, I take a fairly large cooler with a loaf of bread, peanut butter, honey, salmon, tuna fillets, oatmeal, crackers, and snack mix with me. Costs about $13 for a 4-day's worth of food. I eat that, and ONLY that, on my trips. Yep! You read that correctly - I don't spend any money on the road. Do you really want that life?!?

There are some good things about it - when I'm home (14 days off this month) I am at home, relaxing, etc. In another 3 months I'll be on second year pay, which will increase my pay by about 50%, or another $750 per month pre-tax. Wooo-hooo!

Even after upgrade time, in the next few years, CA's make around $55-$60k here. And that's assuming no hiccups with the economy, etc. We most likely will still be renting an apartment, because the company could close my base at anytime, if I do upgrade.

Hopefully the picture I paint isn't too bleak, and yes there are other options than going to a regional, I would explore them first. The problem is, those options generally require more total time than a regional (backwards, eh?) and if you think the picture I painted was bleak as a regional FO, don't even get me started on being a CFI!

It sounds like your wife earns quite a bit; if she is FINE and DANDY (and you are sure, you know how women are) with you earning practically nothing after dolling out about $35k or so for flight training, then go for it. You only live once. But I'll be honest, I can't wait for the day when I can actually afford to splurge and rent an airplane for a few hours on a weekend, and fly on my terms :). You're extremely lucky to be in that situation.

If you can get through that, to answer your question, 31 is certainly NOT too old. A former CFI I worked with was 55, retired lawyer, and will be upgrading to CA in the ERJ soon. He's happy he was actually able to "check that box" on his list of things to do during his lifetime. All the money in the world can't buy something like that (well, it can, if you attend gulfstream ;)).
 
Well, I don't think your too old. I believe you could get a job by your 35th birthday if you strived for it. This would give you a 25-year career, assuming no loss of medical. I would decide how important the money/lifestyle issue is. I make $40K a year as a waiter, but am I happy...no. I would rather make less, to do something I enjoy. I myself have chosen the "fast-track" route, since I'll be 30 next month. I plan to get done in 3 years(1-year for training, 2-years for instructing).
If you are good at your current job, and haven't burned-bridges along the way, I don't see why you couldn't return to that field later, should you change your mind about aviation(maybe not at the same salary, but still probably higher than an aviation job). You only live once! Best of luck, to you.
 
Thanks for all the great input so far folks!'

Here is what has changed my plan a bit:
1) The repeated "ARE YOU SURE YOUR WIFE WILL OK?". Well no, I am not. I am also not sure it is right to put her through it even if she is.
2) "Are you sure you are not just playing a grass is greener episode?" "Its' just a job after a while" "I would sell my left testicle for $70K/yr"

How about this:
Year one--I get a PPL and high perf/Retract gear rating immediately. Fly some weekend fun trips.

Year two--I take a 4 month leave of absence from my job, after saving to compensate. I go to ATP and get IFR, MULTI, ATP, CFI, CFII tickets. Downside is the fat loan here. Basically, I'll trade the beemer for a $15k car, and use the freed up money to pay the loan. A tradeoff I have absolutely no problems with really.

Year three--Job Switch! I become a school teacher (Easy to do where I am) and take advantage of long summers, ample other time off, to supplement my income by instructing. Thus building hours as well.

Year 5-6--Take the plunge into a flying environment, if I am not happy doing what I was doing, or want more. I actually think I would prefer a corporate job more than anything, and have a few good ins. The company I work for has two well kept, but old, lears. The are purchasing a Citation this year with plans for another in a few years. Besides that, there are a few other opportunities. I could see myself content as the teacher/Flight instructor guy for some time. The income would come close if I worked at it, and my wife and I could have sex in the school janitor closet everyday. hehe just kiddin. Wanted to get some eyes open.

OK So I have one serious question:
Do I go here:http://www.templeaero.com/ . I called the number yesterday and got a lady who immediately gave me an instructor number. I called him and he said he was Lt.COL out of Ft.Hood and was in Michigan this week. He said we would get together next week and set up a schedule. School is now Part 61 only. They have 5 aircraft (2 172s, a 150, and Arrow, and a Seneca). 3 are GPS equipped. The only real upsides are that they are local and have a decent mix of aircraft to rent in the future.

OR Do I go here: http://www.allianceflight.com/ft/private.pilot.license.html
I would need a loan or payment plan to start this one. It is also a 1.5 hour drive from my house versus the 10 minutes for the other place. The only upside to this one is that it seems a more professionally developed school, curriculum.
 
Your plan is conservative and allows you to test the waters a bit with each step. I think by year three, though, you'll have a good idea if it's worth it to take the plunge and switch jobs.

What kind of quals does you company look at for right seaters? I would think, if it was a smaller company, they might look at giving you a shot at the right seat of a Citation with fairly low times and have you be a part time pilot and part time IT guy. Just a thought...

I looked at the temple aero website. The price for a 172 and CFI is not out of line, especially if they are well taken care of and upgraded avionics (GPS).

From their website:

"Part 141 is more structored and requires less time for certification, therefore saving a lot of money. Where part 61 is a self pace for people who want to come out once a week or once a month. Your decision is dependant on your schedule and finances."

Disagree with that. You can go just as fast under 61 as 141. I don't see 141 saving you anything on a PPL or IFR. The big savings is with the commercial at 190 vs 250 but, wait, you're trying to build time and get experience anyways, right? I'm just not a fan of the structure of 141 nor do I see it saving money in the long run. You can fly just as much under 61 as 141.

If you do get your CFI and instruct for a while, I still say you'll look back someday and wish you bought a 150 for 20K rather than pay $79/hr for a 172. It boggles my mind that people are willing to take out huge loans for flight training but the thought of investing in a little airplane is unrealistic. Yeah, you stand the chance of an expensive problem but I've owned 10 different airplanes and that's yet to happen. I guess it does happen, though.
 
LoadMasterC141 said:
OK So I have one serious question:
Do I go here:http://www.templeaero.com/ . I called the number yesterday and got a lady who immediately gave me an instructor number. I called him and he said he was Lt.COL out of Ft.Hood and was in Michigan this week. He said we would get together next week and set up a schedule. School is now Part 61 only. They have 5 aircraft (2 172s, a 150, and Arrow, and a Seneca). 3 are GPS equipped. The only real upsides are that they are local and have a decent mix of aircraft to rent in the future.

OR Do I go here: http://www.allianceflight.com/ft/private.pilot.license.html
I would need a loan or payment plan to start this one. It is also a 1.5 hour drive from my house versus the 10 minutes for the other place. The only upside to this one is that it seems a more professionally developed school, curriculum.
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I like the changes to your plan so far. Personally I would chose Temple Aero and see how you like the instructor. A good instructor is what will make or break your experience. Traveling 10 min vs 1.5 hr is also a sure way to boost your own availability for training flights.

PS: Were you ever at Norton, McChord or WPAFB?
 
PS: Were you ever at Norton, McChord or WPAFB?[/quote]

I have visited McChord and Wright-Patt. I was stationed at McGuire AFB in NJ, 6th Airlift Squadron..Bully Beef Express. Norton had gotten rid of the 141 by the time I got in.
 
MDPilot said:
I was lucky enough to avoid Quagmire!! Saw where the last C141 went to the AF museum last week.
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Yes sad sad event. I was watching the blog about it for months over at www.c141heaven.com. McGoo was not that bad. When I arrived they were getting ready to close the whole base and move us to Plattsburgh. Something political happened because Platt and Griffiss closed instead. Over the next 4 years McGuire was completely rebuilt. As a single airman, had my hand in the air for anything going out all the time, so I was rarely there.

Agreed on the flight instructor. I actually called and switched already. The LT.COL guy I talked to last night was giving me all this stuff he had going on…Switching command etc..Plus he will only fly out of Killeen (35 Miles away). He also seemed offended I called him “Bob” rather than COL So and So. Being enlisted previously, I am sure you can tell I enjoyed that nonetheless;)
 
Hey there... sounds like you've got it pretty well figured out and I think it sounds like a great plan. To echo others'... GO FOR IT!!! The conservaive plan you've got will definitely allow you to 'test the waters' before leaping in which is probably a good approach given your current scenario.

For whatever it's worth, I've chosen a similar route. I made the decision to bag the 'ole corporate consulting gig in late 2003. I was 26 at the time so I had a few extra years to burn than you do, but felt the same way you did and decided to not 'rip the bandaid off' immediately and try this out part-time. So I kept my job and started researching places where I could get my Instrument, Commercial, Multi, and Instructor certificates/ratings and settled on ATP (disclaimer: my intent is not to advocate for ATP over any other school as there are many quality schools to choose from. At the time, it met my requirements and I ended up having a great experience there). In the Summer of '04 I started the 10-month program self-paced program and 8 months later I had all the certificates I needed to instruct single and multi-engine students, in and out of the clouds. That puts us in the Spring of 2005. I then began instructing part-time at a local FBO on the weekends and evenings. It's been roughly 2.5 years since I decided to make the switch and the good news... I want to fly full-time even more so now. It's definitely taken some time, but I can't say that I jumped into this too quickly when it's all said and done. So, I've just sold my house and bought a condo and will most likely be leaving my corporate consulting gig in the next few months to pursue flying full-time. It's going to be a BIG adjustment, but I feel extremely confident in 'our' (I'll say more about 'our' in a minute) decision given the time we've taken to figure all this out and make sure it's exactly what we want to do. My hope is to be picked up by a regional before this time next year. Now, back to 'our'... I am also married and my wife has been amazing throughout this entire experience. She is very supportive and I made every effort to ensure she was/is totally comfortable with the change in lifestyle we're about to experience. I won't go into laborious detail, but the one piece of advice that I will give you is to make sure that your wife is totally on board. Family ALWAYS comes first... my $.02.

So... I guess what I'm trying to say is... Yes, it can be done. No, you're not too old. And I think the approach you're taking to this is a good one. Just remember it's a balancing act... you don't want to move too quickly and then find out that this isn't what you wanted, but you also don't want to miss out on too much seniority.

Best of luck to you buddy and I look forward to reading your updates.
 
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