26-year-old airline captain and her 19-year-old co-pilot
- Thread starter fholbert
- Start date
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
They did not have 150 passengers on those planes. Plus, military selection, standards, training, and regime are an entirely different animal.
This 19 yr old kid is no different than the 23 yr old me... plop down couple ten thousands $$$, pass the training by checking boxes, and then go sit right seat of a passenger jet.
The military versus civilian argument doesn't hold the same weight, IMO.
FloridaLarry
Well-Known Member
That many of them did. But we should also remember the horrific crash rates: in training, in trans-Atlantic delivery flights, and in all parts of combat. The higher-time guys got their experience the hard way!
They also started building the airframes (bombers in particular) to last +/- 20 flights, since the average lifespan was about that. Need longer? plenty of pranged and bent airframes to scrounge parts from.
I also still have a hard time with those airfields named (posthumously) for cadets who screwed the pooch during training and augered in. Not something to celebrate or reward, I'd think. Maybe it was a recruiting thing, but still bass-ackwards.
Bob Ridpath
Pit Bull love
I disagree.
Entrusted with lives, and the associated spouses/parents/children ...
Tasked with the responsibility of taking hundreds of lives, maybe thousands over twenty-plus missions, on the ground - mothers/fathers/children, given the wide-range of "precision bombing" at the time, the equivalence is MORE than similar.
I would not minimize for a moment the responsibility of a flight crew tasked with the responsibility of delivering me (and 149 others) safely to KSWF.
Still, I knew personally some of the men who delivered hell to Nazi Germany and occupied France. The price they paid emotionally - with limited training - a hope and a prayer - can't be minimized.
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fholbert
Mod's - Please don't edit my posts!
And we're still flying them today over 70 years later.
On another note, have you ever seen the inside of a B-17 wing? One day I went out to my hangar and there this was. Sat there for about three weeks before they hauled it away.
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Richman
JC’s Resident Curmudgeon
True...but the rate of "non-combat operational losses" would be completely unacceptable in aviation today, let alone 121.
Richman
milleR
Well-Known Member
ArcherII
Well-Known Member
This is something I always think about.
Fast track careers don't necessary bring the joy of flying like we had foreseen as kids.
They might very well be much more capable pilots than I can ever hope to be, but I had the chance to take my papa, mama, gf, sis, friends etc on several flights in the Archer in our countryside.
It's you and the machine, the freedom, the art, the little pleasures of crosswind landing, the low flying, the missus impression and my bro's "do it alright, there's no game over here!".
Everytime I see an intl student, I immediately think that their most valuable aspect of their passion is being ignored by being in a Ford-like pilot factory.
There are honorable exceptions tho.
Anyway, I say poor lads! Until they rent a RV, they won't feel the magic.
I guess to some, its just a job. And to others its a status thing. To others its something else.
Ive run into more than a number of people who have no passion for flight. Its just a job that pays the bills, to them.
ArcherII
Well-Known Member
I don't deny that, as years go by in your career, you would think about it as a job and nothing more.
But I estimate that around 90% of the people who start this career, do it to feed a dream. Why on earth would you go through so much for something you don't actually want?
Good question. I dont really know. I completely agree as years go by in a career, to feel that way. What weird is that the people im describing are largely newbies, not vets. Which is why it was so interesting.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Point is in the civilian world often for the low-hour programs, if you toss money you will make it through. Even if you fail through some stages, you'll eventually get the right seat. I saw it having gone through a typical low time program that put pilots with 250 hrs into commercial passenger jets. Aptitude was never tested, skills just good enough to pass and even if not, you'd get more training and pass. There's no washing out unless you leave yourself. No one says no when you have given them 30k+.
Compared to the military, where there are standards for selection, training, and passing training. You can't buy your way out of the military into a right seat of a military jet.
Just look at the Gulfstream product pilots that were involved in aviation accidents (eg, Pinnacle 3701, Colgan 3407).
Exactly. I went out yesterday on one of the most severe clear days in the NE recently to get single engine current, and forgot how much I loved flying light airplanes and going wherever you want.
I wonder if these pilots will rent or buy a GA plane and tool around on their days off.
CoffeeIcePapers
Well-Hung Member
5k total with nearly all of it in the aircraft? I would say that is fairly highly qualified.
CFI A&P
Exploring the world one toilet at a time.
Just earlier today I was flying solo and did some Dutch rolls (not the swept wing stalling kind) for about five miles. Felt pretty good. Can't do that with 150 people behind you.
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Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
250 hrs to 5 yrs later CA of an A320. A huge well of experience to draw from.
But hey who am I Mr.-236-hr-RJ-pilot to talk
There's a reason when flying within Europe I stick with mainline large legacy carriers. British, Virgin, Lufthansa, KLM, Swiss, Iberia. Not Air France though.
>Cough<
Pilots for the airlines you mentioned ALL go through their representative airlines MPL programs. Or third party MPL programs, like Easy Jet. Then hope and pray to get on with BA or AF.
British Airways MPL graduates start flying at 250 hrs in an A318/19-321. For an almost WO regional FFD airline scheme. Doing all of BA's domestic flying.
Pilots for Lufthansa, are trained in an MPL program here in my backyard of Goodyear, AZ.
As you well know there is no GA in Europe, due to the high price associated.
So either one of the airlines mentioned, the pilots up front all start carrying pax. With 250 hrs.
NovemberEcho
Dergs favorite member
"Turbulence"
poser765
Well-Known Member
I agree with you to an extent. For me, though, the dream was always being an airline pilot. Now that I am one, I feel that I get far more enjoyment out of my job than I ever did just flying around in a 172 solo, or with a friend. That's not to say I didn't have fun doing that...just that this is far more fulfilling for me.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Third-party programs are different than the airline's own. Again, with the private funding of a student's own money (I highly doubt EasyJet paid their training). Pay to graduate. Airline ab initios hire regular non-pilots and screen, select, and then train the pilots themselves. Lufthansa basically invented ab initio and they do a pretty impressive job with it. Right now BA is hiring direct-entry pilots only - and have done direct entry only for many stretches. They opened up the ab initio a while ago and it was very limited slots.
And the biggest thing being once these guys do start at BA, LH, even AF, they'll be FOs (some even termed SOs) for a LONG time. There are no mid 20s Captain at the legacy European airlines. So by the time they get a CA slot, they've been around for a long time. Not the 25 yr old with a 19 yr old ab initio stuff at the ULCCs.