250 under 10,000
- Thread starter oktex88
- Start date
JDE
Well-Known Member
I think they can. I only say that because we were asked the other day if we could climb at 300 kts and we were below 10,000. Now, that was in Class B airspace, so I don't know if it's the same for Class E.
On a side note. Our department manager has a little problem slowing to 250 below 10K. No one ever says anything. Is that something that most controllers kind of disregard and not worry about?
On a side note. Our department manager has a little problem slowing to 250 below 10K. No one ever says anything. Is that something that most controllers kind of disregard and not worry about?
Fox Xray
ATC
No... ATC can not clear you to break the speed limit of 250 knots below 10K. Even if you are told to maintain best forward speed below 10K the PIC needs to understand that as best legal speed.
The only exception that I am aware of is the 12nm rule, A/C 12nm or more offshore can exceed 250 below 10K. You will see this done with A/C transitioning from the ocean over CAMRN into the NY metros. I **think** military A/C will never exceed 250 below 10K regardless of 12nm ofshore but don't hold me to that, a military pilot can confirm that for you.
Even during an emergency I will state to an A/C speed your discretion ... in other words, do what you gotta do to get the bird on the ground.
The only exception that I am aware of is the 12nm rule, A/C 12nm or more offshore can exceed 250 below 10K. You will see this done with A/C transitioning from the ocean over CAMRN into the NY metros. I **think** military A/C will never exceed 250 below 10K regardless of 12nm ofshore but don't hold me to that, a military pilot can confirm that for you.
Even during an emergency I will state to an A/C speed your discretion ... in other words, do what you gotta do to get the bird on the ground.
Fox Xray
ATC
Not necessarily ... you still could have been asked to do it below 10K, still does not make it legal. The best example I can offer you would be the controller has a choice of losing separation or breaking a rule ? I think we would all vote for breaking a rule. I have seen it done, guys were in a jam and needed an A/C out of the way ASAP ... sometimes the A/C decline and refuse to break the 250. It's such a dynamic situation there could be dozens of reasons you were asked, most likely the controller was in a jam and needed you to pick it up... not a legal way but it may have worked in maintaining separation.
seagull
Well-Known Member
If you are within 12 miles of the U.S., the answer is that ATC absolutely can NOT authorize you to violate 91.117. You can only exceed it under 91.3 or 91.117(d). Furthermore, it is NOT ATC's responsibility to know what your requirements are, and if they have a bunch of MD11s departing heavy, they might not realize the rule. They separate the metal, YOU fly IAW your rules.
Fox Xray
ATC
This is a bit of a gray area... I see it done more often then you would think and yes, most ignore it, the faster you're going the faster you're out of my sector
. If I need the 250 I will query the A/C ... N1234... verify you are slowing to 2-5-0 knots ... where I always get the "we were just pulling her back"If I don't have a problem with the speed I will generally restrict the A/C leaving my airspace ...N1234 cross XYZ at 2-5-0 knots.
JDE
Well-Known Member
So, theoretically, I could get busted for breaking the speed limit because the controller needed the separation so he wouldn't get busted?
Fox Xray
ATC
We would have no idea... I only see ground speed. The only way I can figure out that someone is cheating is if they start catching or out running other A/C or the A/C speed over the ground is high. 8 knots I could not tell nor would it hurt me separation wise. We use a lot of mental math separating A/C ... for every 60 knots or airspeed greater the A/C will gain 1 mile per minute. This is a standard formula we use to "project" what out situation will be in the future. Use that formula based on the +8 knots and it's no factor, I would never be able to tell.
Fox Xray
ATC
Actually in theory if the controller got caught (either turning himself in or via remote monitoring) both would get busted and both for a rule violation. The controller asking for the speed and the pilot complying. In our world our number one job is the separation of air traffic... we are not authorized to suspend rules in the event of a loss of separation **but** ... if I have two coming together and my out is to speed and A/C up breaking the 250 rule... I know what choice I would make (and anyone else for that matter).
All "my friend" wanted to hear!
Usually, on a really heavy "DC-9 series aircraft" it can be as high as 260 knots, but it's a rarity.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
I never break 250, but we run into problems in the terminal area with catching up to jets REALLY quickly. We can't just pull our power back (because of stage cooling) so max forward speed and slowest speed avalible are the same for us, and it's usually about 180 knots indicated on the descent. I kinda feel bad for the Socal approach controllers dealing with us.
Fox Xray
ATC
All "my friend" wanted to hear!
Usually, on a really heavy "DC-9 series aircraft" it can be as high as 260 knots, but it's a rarity.
Your friend has nothing to worry about ...
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Yup, with big ole' TIO-540's out there that don't like power changes of more than about 5 inches at a time. Further we have to start stage cooling them from (give or take) 24-26 miles out. We'll do a 2 inch pull every 2 minutes, going from 26" to (give or take) 18" for the approach. That takes us from doing 150 knots indicated (give or take) to 120 knots indicated.
The real problem is when we get slam dunked. Approach will put us 2,000' about the FAF on an ILS and 5 miles away from it and then start asking for us to slow down when we've got 40 knots on a 737 in front of us because we have to shove the nose over without reducing power. Unforunately we can't do that. Most guys have us figured out around here, a few don't, though.
The real problem is when we get slam dunked. Approach will put us 2,000' about the FAF on an ILS and 5 miles away from it and then start asking for us to slow down when we've got 40 knots on a 737 in front of us because we have to shove the nose over without reducing power. Unforunately we can't do that. Most guys have us figured out around here, a few don't, though.
Fox Xray
ATC
Or VLJ...
Flysher
Well-Known Member
Just outta curiousity, what do you guys cruise at (power wise) in the Chieftain? I use 33 inches and then start inch per minute reductions till I reach 150 knots for approach. After that flaps and gear slow me down so that another few inches will give me 100 knots by DH/MDA.
I know what you mean also about overtaking airliners, you really have to plan it out in advance so that doesnt happen.