1500TT minimums ?

Firebird2XC said:
Please clarifiy? The numbered page, or the page of the data document? I can't find what you're looking for.
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The page of the data document, page 176. You stated that your idea for the new rest rules was your idea. If you look at page 176 the new rest rules were a LOOOONG time in the making.

What I did find was a date on the signature page- 2010. Long enough for ALPA to adopt the bullet of R3407 Project after the fact.
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ALPA did not look to adopt any bullet of the '3407 Project'. ALPA acted seperately. And your claimed timing is off, more on that later.

Ultimately, however, ALPA failed to make any cumulative change.
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That is correct, however, like I said earlier, after the accident, we had a favorable administrator who wanted to finish what he started.

The date of that document is December, 2009. Over six months after my initiative, at least.
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During the NTSB Public Hearing which was in May, revised pilot training requirements were talked about IN DEPTH. Your initiative was repetitive of what was already discussed. It is not like you were the only one out there that knew that the training was subpar. It was WELL documented during the NTSB Public hearing.



I'm not certain that's correct. I can't find the specific start date of the website anywhere- but I find references to it being up in May.
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Soooo, you keep highlighting that you sent the letter in May, and claim your website was up in 'mid-May', but with the below link, you said it took them until July to respond. Furthermore, after the NTSB Public Hearing which occured May 12th to May 14th, the families themselves stayed in Washington and hit Capital Hill pretty hard about the need for Congress to get involved. Unless, I am missing something did you meet with the family members right after the NTSB public hearing. Need proof that the 3407 Families were already getting invovled before you claim your ideas started to form about going to Congress?

http://www.3407memorial.com/index.php/press-releases?start=133

This is the Colgan 3407 FAMILY Page. The news page 20 should be linked above. Take a look at the May 29th, Press Release. The families were already WELL underway on starting to get Congress invovled well before you even got a response from your Congressman. Furthermore, if you were 'beating down the calls of Congress' to get change, why weren't you at the June 17th Senate Hearing? The Colgan Families were, industry was there, ALPA represenatives (including myself) was there, but I didn't see you there. During that hearing, many of the ideas you claimed were your idea, were discussed.

Also, look at this letter from a member of Congress on May 13th.

http://votesmart.org/public-stateme...-president-and-general-manager-colgan-air-inc

Questions were already starting to be asked by Congress before your were getting letter out. Or did you right to Congressman Boccieri before May 13th, 2009?

No. So? The ideas pushed for the surviving families were adopted from the letter campaign used to bombard Congress with the ideas.
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Once again, from what I saw, and the information above, the families were already WELL underway in getting to Congress, before your website popped up.




Yes it is. Key points addressed that were my idea and were commented on or implemented by the DOT or FAA:

1. Truth in advertising clause for travel websites, clarifying the need for transparency and accountability in the airline world. The point of this was to draw attention to the scope of Regional airline operations and its effect on air travelers.
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Discussed during the NTSB Public Hearing in May 2009, the House Hearing in May 2009, and the Senate Hearing in June 2009. All, from what I can tell, occured before your website was started.

2. A required minimum wage for airline pilots. The FAA commented on this and basically said "we don't do this." It was never intended to be taken that far, and was a "pie in the sky" suggestion.
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Ok

3. Prior to the Remember 3407 Project, no one had suggested that the rules be changed by lobbying Congress to pass a law directing the FAA directly. So we did. Shortly after I started the initial Remember 3407 Project, the American Eagle MEC Communications chair approached me about adopting my idea set and launching an official American Eagle campaign.
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That is not true. You only need to read the first few paragraphs here.

http://www.alpa.org/portals/alpa/magazine/2008/Feb2008_Age65.pdf

Congress passes laws all the time directing the FAA to take action. ALPA Lobbied Congress to change the retirement age, so I fail to see how your breaking new ground here.

4. You stated above that ALPA pushed for "improved training". At no time did they push for a hard qualification change. That was absolutely my idea.
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Once again, I am calling bull. Look at the ALPA Submission to the 3407 Accident. They pushed for qualification changes. Read the transcripts from the Public Hearing, specifically on May 14th. Better training and qualifications have always been a cornerstone in the ALPA Policies towards regulatroy changes.


As for the start date of the Remember 3407 Project, it may have been April or May of 2009. I don't entirely remember. The thread archiving here doesn't go back quite far enough. But this update thread from July, 2009, references the letter writing campaign in May of 2009. *shrugs*

http://forums.jetcareers.com/threads/remember-3407-project-strikes-a-chord.90887/

"Back in in mid-May I sent a letter to both my Senators and my Congressman regarding the hot button issues for regional airline pilots. I focused my letter on fatigue, qualifications and pay using many of the topic points that FIREBIRD2XC has addressed on his web page Remember 3407 Project"

As is usual, though, ALPA played a hugely pivotal part in this- but based on the time it takes such a large organization to organize and present official information, arguing their reports as the originals is questionable. The idea base launched through my idea campaign were on point here. And we have the end results of the grass roots rabble rousing the effort achieved to thank for our regulatory break through as a result.
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Then why is there no references in the 3407 Family Press Releases to the project? How many times did you meet with them? How many members of Congress did you personally speak to on this? Did you attend the Senate or House Hearings?
 
Firebird2XC said:
It may not have been my original idea, per se, but approaching Congress instead of the FAA definitely was.
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Once again, it is not your idea because it is done ALL THE TIME.

One that came to mind off the top of my head was how ALPA Lobbied Congress to require, by law, to raise the airline pilot retirement age from 60 to 65.

http://www.leftseat.com/age60.htm

Citing that discrepancy, both the Federal Aviation Administration and the nation's largest pilots union, the Air Line Pilots Association, eventually supported changing the retirement age. But with FAA officials warning it could take years to rewrite the regulations already on the books, activists such as Emens turned to Congress for relief.
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http://www.alpa.org/portals/alpa/magazine/2008/Feb2008_Age65.pdf
 
Seggy said:
Once again, it is not your idea because it is done ALL THE TIME.
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I remember discussing the idea of an ATP requirement to kill the PFT bottom feeders and the puppy mill flight schools at the meet and greet at the Hard 8 BBQ the very day that 3407 would crash a few hours later. Firebird, Qugar, Mikecweb, myself and several others were there.

I also remember that once the 3407 families had organized just a few months later, Charlie mentioned to me that he was considering approaching them with his (and others) ideas about improving safety so they could have some concrete proposals to take to their Senators and Representatives. The 3407 families and trade groups took it from there and did all the heavy lifting, but I can personally vouch that Charlie was one of the first people to put the idea out there.
 
This. More to follow once I've had some time to fact-find and do some research.

USMCmech said:
I remember discussing the idea of an ATP requirement to kill the PFT bottom feeders and the puppy mill flight schools at the meet and greet at the Hard 8 BBQ the very day that 3407 would crash a few hours later. Firebird, Qugar, Mikecweb, myself and several others were there.

I also remember that once the 3407 families had organized just a few months later, Charlie mentioned to me that he was considering approaching them with his (and others) ideas about improving safety so they could have some concrete proposals to take to their Senators and Representatives. The 3407 families and trade groups took it from there and did all the heavy lifting, but I can personally vouch that Charlie was one of the first people to put the idea out there.
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dasleben said:
Well, I guess congratulations are in order to Firebird2XC for convincing JC that he thought up something others were already thinking of anyway, then doing none of the heavy lifting. You win a gold star. :D
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Unlike those many (including myself) who had this idea, instead of standing around bitching, he actually did something about it.


I personally believe that the ATP requirement will help the pilot profession long term. Combined with many other factors it will mean that instead of a huge surplus of low time pilots who will fly for the regionals for peanuts, there will now be a smaller supply of experienced professionals who will demand a living wage.

Charlie deserves credit for being one of the people who got that ball rolling.
 
USMCmech said:
Unlike those many (including myself) who had this idea, instead of standing around bitching, he actually did something about it.


I personally believe that the ATP requirement will help the pilot profession long term. Combined with many other factors it will mean that instead of a huge surplus of low time pilots who will fly for the regionals for peanuts, there will now be a smaller supply of experienced professionals who will demand a living wage.

Charlie deserves credit for being one of the people who got that ball rolling.
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He was also willing to stick his neck out and be quoted on the front page of the Wall Street Journal. Which is more than I would do in my business... Being critical of the biz you work in to the press is often risky behavior.
 
USMCmech said:
Unlike those many (including myself) who had this idea, instead of standing around bitching, he actually did something about it.


I personally believe that the ATP requirement will help the pilot profession long term. Combined with many other factors it will mean that instead of a huge surplus of low time pilots who will fly for the regionals for peanuts, there will now be a smaller supply of experienced professionals who will demand a living wage.

Charlie deserves credit for being one of the people who got that ball rolling.
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1500 hour pilots will still go fly for peanuts to build experience. 1500TT does not put someone in the "experienced professionals" category (exception being military pilots), and someone with 1500 hours teaching in 172s will still more than likely go and fly RJs for $23/hr in order to build turbine experience.

This 1500 rule is a thinly veiled attempt at raising working conditions, not an actual increase in safety. In reality, it's nothing more than pilots who already "got theirs" pulling up the ladder behind them, knowing full well that they also gladly took low-paying jobs with low time.
 
dasleben said:
This 1500 rule is a thinly veiled attempt at raising working conditions, not an actual increase in safety.
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No one has pretended otherwise, but at least the attempt has been made. What have you done?

No, 1500 hours does not exactly equal "experienced professional", but it is dramatically better than 250.
 
dasleben said:
This 1500 rule is a thinly veiled attempt at raising working conditions, not an actual increase in safety. In reality, it's nothing more than pilots who already "got theirs" pulling up the ladder behind them, knowing full well that they also gladly took low-paying jobs with low time.
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I think it will make the PFJ CFI job more common. It is pretty close already many places. Maybe I should open a flight school and charge my CFI's, I'm sure I will find some suckers. ;)
 
USMCmech said:
I remember discussing the idea of an ATP requirement to kill the PFT bottom feeders and the puppy mill flight schools at the meet and greet at the Hard 8 BBQ the very day that 3407 would crash a few hours later. Firebird, Qugar, Mikecweb, myself and several others were there.

I also remember that once the 3407 families had organized just a few months later, Charlie mentioned to me that he was considering approaching them with his (and others) ideas about improving safety so they could have some concrete proposals to take to their Senators and Representatives. The 3407 families and trade groups took it from there and did all the heavy lifting, but I can personally vouch that Charlie was one of the first people to put the idea out there.
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My point is to say that it was his idea to go to Congress instead of the FAA and think of that as a break through idea that has never been done is disingenuous at best. Also, look at the timing issues AND the fact that the families were already on their way to push for change before the project really took form. Finally, Congress was already moving towards pushing the FAA to do something which is evident from the Boccieri letter.
 
Seggy said:
My point is to say that it was his idea to go to Congress instead of the FAA and think of that as a break through idea that has never been done is disingenuous at best. Also, look at the timing issues AND the fact that the families were already on their way to push for change before the project really took form.
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This is true, and he never implied that he did anything other than give the 3407 families a list of concrete proposals, They carried it from there.
 
dasleben said:
1500 hour pilots will still go fly for peanuts to build experience. 1500TT does not put someone in the "experienced professionals" category (exception being military pilots), and someone with 1500 hours teaching in 172s will still more than likely go and fly RJs for $23/hr in order to build turbine experience.

This 1500 rule is a thinly veiled attempt at raising working conditions, not an actual increase in safety. In reality, it's nothing more than pilots who already "got theirs" pulling up the ladder behind them, knowing full well that they also gladly took low-paying jobs with low time.
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So you're saying a 1500 hour pilot is equally as safe and experienced as a 250 hour pilot? Do explain!
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
So you're saying a 1500 hour pilot is equally as safe and experienced as a 250 hour pilot? Do explain!
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Not at all, but does it really require 1500 hours to do this job? I flew RJs safely at 850 hours, and I know plenty of guys who got hired with much less and flew accident-free. And let's face it: Even Colgan 3407 wouldn't have been prevented by this rule. Now, the changes to stall training that we've seen as a response have been excellent.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
I don't think anyone can draw conclusions from total time only. Currency probably matters much more - I would prefer 250TT in the last year to 1500 from 20 years ago.
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Of course you can't, but on many different levels requiring an ATP to be an airline pilot is highly logical.
 
dasleben said:
Not at all, but does it really require 1500 hours to do this job? I flew RJs safely at 850 hours, and I know plenty of guys who got hired with much less and flew accident-free. And let's face it: Even Colgan 3407 wouldn't have been prevented by this rule. Now, the changes to stall training that we've seen as a response have been excellent.
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Actually it would have prevented them both from being hired (at least until later on)... so yes, it would have prevented 3407.
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
Actually it would have prevented them both from being hired (at least until later on)... so yes, it would have prevented 3407.
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Even though they both had a decent amount of time in type, and experience with 121 ops? I blame the craptastic "fly it out" stall training we all received at that time, not total time.
 
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