1500TT minimums ?

kellwolf said:
We're not talking new hire class. We're talking actually being a help to the PIC instead of the CA having to wonder if he's going to be single pilot for the next four days. As Autothrust pointed out, it's not the math that's the problem. The only difference in fuel management between a Seminole and a jet are the numbers. The "word problem" is the same. The major difference is you can't just top off the tanks every time in a jet. However, and maybe I'm the odd one out, I had to do fuel burn computations on every checkride from private pilot on. Had to do them when I did flight planning for cross countries as well. It's not a new concept being introduced at the airlines. As a general rule, the only people I have come across against the new rules are the ones that don't meet the new requirements.
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I can see your point and you have much more experience than me so I am sure you know what you are talking about

I just do not see how a 1500 C-172 pilot is going to be much better in helping the CA than a 500 C-172 pilot.

Now if you have a 135 pilot who worked up from 1200-1500 and flew B-99's, B1900's, PA-31 and C-172 then I think this would the most helpful pilot to the CA.

Also though a lot of the people I see that like the rule are the ones that got hired with less than 1500TT. I mean just saying there are people in these forums that got hired with less than ATP mins and then there people who did get hired and worked very hard to get the ATP mins for a airline. So my kudos to the people that agree with the rule and actually earned the 1500 hours. But I do not support the people that agree with the rule and got hired with less than 1500TT.

But I do really understand all your points and I do not think your odd one out. I am ;)
 
purpel said:
I can see your point and you have much more experience than me so I am sure you know what you are talking about.

I just do not see how a 1500 C-172 pilot is going to be much better in helping the CA than a 500 C-172 pilot.
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It depends. A 1500 hour pilot that hasn't left the pattern? Not much, hence the reason I'm a fan of requiring the ATP rating rather than some hour requirement. There's an hour requirement built into the ATP, but there's a lot of other things as well that go along with it. The best thing anyone can do is go out and fly long cross countries in the ATC system. You're more likely to have some "oh crap" moments that you will learn from. Sometimes scaring yourself to death is the best teacher. :)
 
Firebird2XC said:
Let me clear this up for you. The new rest rule regulations that are forthcoming are in response to pilots flying with inadequate rest. The 1500 rule went with it- along with several others, such as the truth in advertising about who you're really flying, and fatigue management programs.

The 1500 rule, in its simplest intent, exists to kill Pay For Job (PFJ). That's PFJ either as an actual check being written to apply for a job, or to pass off "experience gained" as a suitable substitute for livable wages, thereby structuring airline hiring to only the most minimally qualified, least experienced (therefore, cheapest) pilots applicants possible.

The best thing you can do to advance safety is to put two well trained, well rested pilots in the flight deck. This will make strides to help promote that.

Questions?
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I was being facetious. The subjective issue of experience gets ushered to the front of the line and the increased rest takes years to enact.

I fully support having to get an ATP, but the rest rules should be priority #1.
 
DPApilot said:
This times a million!
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I used to think the same way. I used to think that said pilots are merely pulling up the ladder behind them. However I have had a change of heart over the last year.

I think for the guys who got hired with less that an ATP but support the rule now are basing their decision off of their experience now and recognizing their inexperience when they got hired. It's kind of like, "if I could go back then and know what I know now, I wouldn't get on [with an airline] with low time." Correct me if I'm wrong folks...
 
I will be the first to admit, I was extremely pissed off when this came out. I had just submitted my application to various airlines, and since then, I have been chasing the updated minimums every month. It was frustrating to meet the minimums for the airlines at the end of the month, updating my apps, only to receive an email saying, "Sorry, but we have raised our minimums again. Keep building your time and updating your app." When I first got my applications submitted, a guy from my CFI class had just gone to ExpressJet with 450 hours, I had about 530 hours at the time, and was told to keep building time. It will end up costing me about 1.5 years worth of seniority, but during that time, I can say, I have gained infinitely more knowledge and experience.

I can definitely see how this rule will make things safer on the industry as a whole. At most flight schools, as long as you continue to pump money into it, you will get your ratings somehow/eventually. This rule will hopefully wash out some of those pilots who honestly, shouldn't be in the cockpit of a commercial airliner. 1250 hours is a lot of time to build, and I can say, unless you know your stuff, and have the skills, it can be difficult to get through that time unscathed. I have had all sorts of weird situations, malfunctions, and decisions that has made me a better pilot. I wouldn't trade that experience for anything.

Like I said, has it sucked chasing the airlines month after month, only to have them raise their minimums right as I get to them? Absolutely. Have I learned some things, and built some good quality experience? Without a doubt. In the end, I know it has made me a better/more competent pilot all around, even if I'm not where I wanted to be right now. After all, once I hit 1500TT, I can go anywhere I want to.

Oh yeah, and the people who are in love with this rule, despite the fact that they themselves were hired well below 1500 hours piss me off royally. You can't have your cake and eat it too. I bet all of you were able to get through training, and have become good, safe airline pilots. So I don't want to hear anything from you guys, unless its about how much of a pain you were to your captains because you really weren't ready when you thought you were. I will accept speaking from experience on that one.
 
ahsmatt7 said:
I used to think the same way. I used to think that said pilots are merely pulling up the ladder behind them. However I have had a change of heart over the last year.

I think for the guys who got hired with less that an ATP but support the rule now are basing their decision off of their experience now and recognizing their inexperience when they got hired. It's kind of like, "if I could go back then and know what I know now, I wouldn't get on [with an airline] with low time." Correct me if I'm wrong folks...
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I got hired right at 1000, and I was one of the low time guys in the class. 'Course this was back in the day where you didn't get a phone call for an interview with less than 1000 unless you knew a lot of people or were the chief pilot's kid. I wasn't ready then. The reason I support this is because it keeps airlines from doing exactly what they did less than a year after I got hired: hiring anyone that had a pulse and met the (then) legal minimums. Hours don't guarantee experience, but how experienced can you really be when you JUST got your commercial multi-engine rating two weeks before you started 121 ground school?
 
Firebird2XC said:
Let me clear this up for you. The new rest rule regulations that are forthcoming are in response to pilots flying with inadequate rest. The 1500 rule went with it- along with several others, such as the truth in advertising about who you're really flying, and fatigue management programs.

The 1500 rule, in its simplest intent, exists to kill Pay For Job (PFJ). That's PFJ either as an actual check being written to apply for a job, or to pass off "experience gained" as a suitable substitute for livable wages, thereby structuring airline hiring to only the most minimally qualified, least experienced (therefore, cheapest) pilots applicants possible.

The best thing you can do to advance safety is to put two well trained, well rested pilots in the flight deck. This will make strides to help promote that.

Questions?
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If you think that'll stop PFT/PFJ, I have a bridge to sell you. See: Riddle carve out.
 
kellwolf said:
I got hired right at 1000, and I was one of the low time guys in the class. 'Course this was back in the day where you didn't get a phone call for an interview with less than 1000 unless you knew a lot of people or were the chief pilot's kid. I wasn't ready then. The reason I support this is because it keeps airlines from doing exactly what they did less than a year after I got hired: hiring anyone that had a pulse and met the (then) legal minimums. Hours don't guarantee experience, but how experienced can you really be when you JUST got your commercial multi-engine rating two weeks before you started 121 ground school?
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I understand where you are coming from. I also agree with your views. I'm basing my opinion these days on how humbled I am to be a new commercial pilot and no I have seen my friends progress mentally from thinking like me to thinking about the same situations completely differently 1000 hours later. It's real eye opener and quite frankly, I can't wait to see the day where I am having the same thought process.
 
kellwolf said:
I got hired right at 1000, and I was one of the low time guys in the class. 'Course this was back in the day where you didn't get a phone call for an interview with less than 1000 unless you knew a lot of people or were the chief pilot's kid. I wasn't ready then. The reason I support this is because it keeps airlines from doing exactly what they did less than a year after I got hired: hiring anyone that had a pulse and met the (then) legal minimums. Hours don't guarantee experience, but how experienced can you really be when you JUST got your commercial multi-engine rating two weeks before you started 121 ground school?
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Agreed. I believe 121 carriers should have a 750 hour minimum. I can't imagine flying in this environment with 350 hours.
 
kellwolf said:
As a fomer 121 PIC I absolutley think the SIC should have an ATP. I was hoping I was done giving basic instruction when I left my CFI job. With the batch of low time guys my airline hired, I was still having to teach things like cross wind correction, fuel management and cockpit organization. There are a lot of things you just can't substitute for experience. I'd wager MOST guys and gals that are CAs in the 121 world would agree that the person sitting next to them should have at least an ATP. The job of the first officer is to assist the CA and (if needed) assume command of the aircraft in the event the CA cannot do so. Their job is not to fill the seat so the airline that employs them can dispatch the flight. If the CA croaks on the flight, who would you rather have assuming the controls: someone with experience and an ATP rating or a 300 hour guy that's spent the past year or less tooling around in a Seminole with an instructor who's first real command decision is going to be declaring the emergency he or she just found themselves in?
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I think you having to give basic instruction while in a 121 op falls on the airline for hiring those people. I don't think every pilot needs an ATP to be a competent SIC at an airline.
 
moeflyin said:
I don't think every pilot needs an ATP to be a competent SIC at an airline.
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Agreed in priniciple. However, the pilot who can be ready to fly as a FO in a jet or turboprop at less than 500 hours is by far the exception.

I think you having to give basic instruction while in a 121 op falls on the airline for hiring those people.
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Granted, but how exactly do you force the airline to not hire marginal pilots?
 
kellwolf said:
It depends. A 1500 hour pilot that hasn't left the pattern? Not much, hence the reason I'm a fan of requiring the ATP rating rather than some hour requirement. There's an hour requirement built into the ATP, but there's a lot of other things as well that go along with it. The best thing anyone can do is go out and fly long cross countries in the ATC system. You're more likely to have some "oh crap" moments that you will learn from. Sometimes scaring yourself to death is the best teacher. :)
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Steve, work with me here; what 1,500 hour CFI hasn't left the pattern?
 
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