14 CFR 135 rest rules discussion

[aviatortolle]

[modhat]
...continued from a Job posting thread....[/modhat]

You can expect a three day weekend every three weeks and most of the time you are on call. We do 24 hours on call but most trips go out after 9 pm. After 9 there is a 100 dollar bonus. Overnights and meals are paid. Pay starts at 40,000 a year. But expect to pull anywhere from 43 to 48. There is no bonus and you don't get your first paycheck until you are hired on. All checkrides are done with the FAA as well as we are only a 3 pilot operation. You must be willing to work hard, answer your phone when called, change the airplane over from charter to Ambo and clean the aircraft out after a trip. Also we do go to Mexico quite a bit but no overnights.

How do you avoid breaking the 14 hours of duty rule if you are on 24 hours?

I work at an air ambulance company and we only do 12 hour shifts as we have always been told that our duty time starts when we go on shift not when we take the first flight.

 

[flyTotheSky]

Re: Cessna 421 ambulance and charter

Unless he means they are a 24 hour operation....

There is no way an unscheduled 135 operator can have it's pilot's "on-call" 24/7. Totally illegal....135.267 clearly states this. Duty time does NOT commence once you accept a trip, it starts and finishes at a predetermined point. Unfortunately, most small 135s get away with this one...

 

[Dugie8]

Re: Cessna 421 ambulance and charter

Unless he means they are a 24 hour operation....

There is no way an unscheduled 135 operator can have it's pilot's "on-call" 24/7. Totally illegal....135.267 clearly states this. Duty time does NOT commence once you accept a trip, it starts and finishes at a predetermined point. Unfortunately, most small 135s get away with this one...

You would be surprised at the number of POIs who don't agree with you or the on point interps from the chief council.

Hopefully when the new 121 rest rules come in, 135 follows shortly and 24 hours on call will go away for good.

 

[avi8tor1983]

Re: Cessna 421 ambulance and charter

I understand the regs. It's how we do it though. One call out normally kills your day though. One ambulance call here takes 6 hours and only 2 hours of flight time. Our medics are SLOW haha.

 

[saria19]

Re: Cessna 421 ambulance and charter

You would be surprised at the number of POIs who don't agree with you or the on point interps from the chief council.

Hopefully when the new 121 rest rules come in, 135 follows shortly and 24 hours on call will go away for good.

What about regs for flight schools? They know about 8 hour duty days but believe that only pretains to flight. I have actual hard copy time sheets where I have had to come in at 8am and haven't left until almost 10:50pm.

 

[mshunter]

Re: Cessna 421 ambulance and charter

What about regs for flight schools? They know about 8 hour duty days but believe that only pretains to flight. I have actual hard copy time sheets where I have had to come in at 8am and haven't left until almost 10:50pm.

You're right about it only pertaining to flight time. I used to work those same hours as a flight instructor. They are brutal!

 

[Dugie8]

Re: Cessna 421 ambulance and charter

What about regs for flight schools? They know about 8 hour duty days but believe that only pretains to flight. I have actual hard copy time sheets where I have had to come in at 8am and haven't left until almost 10:50pm.

I honestly don't know. UND had a 12 hour, IIRC, duty limit set forth in SOP, waivable by the CP upt to 14, again IIRC. The 8 hour thing is flight time, not "duty". I don't believe there is a reg outlining max duty day for flight instructors, but I haven't instructed in over a decade.

 

[Inverted25]

Re: Cessna 421 ambulance and charter

here is no way an unscheduled 135 operator can have it's pilot's "on-call" 24/7. Totally illegal....135.267 clearly states this. Duty time does NOT commence once you accept a trip, it starts and finishes at a predetermined point. Unfortunately, most small 135s get away with this one...

Then how does Planesense get away with you being on call 24/7 for one week than having one week off.

 

[Dugie8]

Then how does Planesense get away with you being on call 24/7 for one week than having one week off.

Short answer: it is illeagal and their POI is either unwilling or ignorant to enforce or understand the reg(s).

Not a dig against the company or anyone who works there. It is just the way it is.

 

[Douglas]

Re: Cessna 421 ambulance and charter

Edit: never mind, it wasn't anything but a hijack.

 

[SIUav8er]

Re: Cessna 421 ambulance and charter

why do job postings for 135 companies turn into a rest requirement argument? seeing as how none of us besides the OP works for the company, we really dont have a clue as to what the scheduling is like and whether the follow the rules or not!

 

[milleR]

Re: Cessna 421 ambulance and charter

Then how does Planesense get away with you being on call 24/7 for one week than having one week off.

They're a fractional operator under part 91 I believe.

 

[ppragman]

Re: Cessna 421 ambulance and charter

Unless he means they are a 24 hour operation....

There is no way an unscheduled 135 operator can have it's pilot's "on-call" 24/7. Totally illegal....135.267 clearly states this. Duty time does NOT commence once you accept a trip, it starts and finishes at a predetermined point. Unfortunately, most small 135s get away with this one...

Actually, it doesn't. It only says that you have to have a rest period, and the definition of "rest period" says that you have to be free from all responsibility for work and duty should the occasion arise. These two things are open to interpretation, which is why different companies, POIs, and "administrators" say different things.

Consider this: the company says, "you're off and free from responsibility for work for at least the next 10 hours, after that, we will update you with the new schedule with at least 30minutes lead time to get to the airplane." What's wrong with that? You're free from responsibility until they call you to go back to work and you've gotten your required rest. Some people say that the "should the occasion arise" nixes this idea, frankly I think the spirit of the law is to prevent the company from keeping the pilots at the airport for 19hrs waiting on a flight, and saying that the last 19hrs were rest and that the pilots still need to fly, rather than saying you can't go off the clock and go home and wait to get called back in.

 

[Dugie8]

Re: Cessna 421 ambulance and charter

Actually, it doesn't. It only says that you have to have a rest period, and the definition of "rest period" says that you have to be free from all responsibility for work and duty should the occasion arise. These two things are open to interpretation, which is why different companies, POIs, and "administrators" say different things.

Consider this: the company says, "you're off and free from responsibility for work for at least the next 10 hours, after that, we will update you with the new schedule with at least 30minutes lead time to get to the airplane." What's wrong with that? You're free from responsibility until they call you to go back to work and you've gotten your required rest. Some people say that the "should the occasion arise" nixes this idea, frankly I think the spirit of the law is to prevent the company from keeping the pilots at the airport for 19hrs waiting on a flight, and saying that the last 19hrs were rest and that the pilots still need to fly, rather than saying you can't go off the clock and go home and wait to get called back in.

Actually there is zero room for interpretation from a company or a POI. POIs don't and cannot interpret the regs.

The Mayors is 100% on point about this and leaves no room for grey or any other color.

Couple of points.

The FAA defines "duty" as "actual work for the air carrier or the present responsibility for
such should the occasion arise." Legal Interpretation 1993-31 (Dec. 13, 1993). The period
of time during which a pilot is obligated to answer a carrier's page or call, whether or not​

such a page or call is received, is not a rest period. Therefore, because the pilot in your

hypothetical has the duty to report for a flight assignment once notified by the certificate​

​

​

holder, he is on duty for the duration of his shift.​

Your question deals with standby status - that is, when a crewmember has not been assigned

duty but is awaiting contact from the certificate holder. We have consistently interpreted
that if a standby or reserve pilot has a present responsibility to work ​

​

if called, then he is on duty because he is not free from restraint.​

 

[ppragman]

Re: Cessna 421 ambulance and charter

Actually there is zero room for interpretation from a company or a POI. POIs don't and cannot interpret the regs.

The Mayors is 100% on point about this and leaves no room for grey or any other color.

Couple of points.

So if my company says that I have the right to refuse flights when called, then I'm golden. We're not talking "stand-by status" (which is what the interpretation says) we're talking you're "off duty" until we give you a call and let you know the new schedule. You can do whatever the hell you want off duty. Read what the interpretation says, if you're not "obligated" to answer the phone (like if there was a pool of pilots or something similar) then you're not "on duty." If you can let it go to voicemail without any repercussions, you're set. Now companies cal always say "well, yeah, we make our flights that are outside of a normal daytime duty period optional for the crews (even if they're not really optional) and get away with it.

 

[ppragman]

Re: Cessna 421 ambulance and charter

Actually there is zero room for interpretation from a company or a POI. POIs don't and cannot interpret the regs.

The Mayors is 100% on point about this and leaves no room for grey or any other color.

Couple of points.

Oh, and by the way, every POI I've ever run into is constantly "interpreting" the regs to determine what's legal. Interpret the regs in relation to the company they're assigned to (in order to insure compliance) is essentially all a POI does. What one POI says is Kosher is completely different from what another POI says. Its all interpretation.

 

[Dugie8]

Re: Cessna 421 ambulance and charter

So if my company says that I have the right to refuse flights when called, then I'm golden. We're not talking "stand-by status" (which is what the interpretation says) we're talking you're "off duty" until we give you a call and let you know the new schedule. You can do whatever the hell you want off duty. Read what the interpretation says, if you're not "obligated" to answer the phone (like if there was a pool of pilots or something similar) then you're not "on duty." If you can let it go to voicemail without any repercussions, you're set. Now companies cal always say "well, yeah, we make our flights that are outside of a normal daytime duty period optional for the crews (even if they're not really optional) and get away with it.

You are completey correct. If you are under no obligation to accept the flight, then yup not on duty. However, that is abused... a lot. But if I "have" or am "expected" to answer my phone at a certain time, that time is the start of my duty period, end of debate.

 

[Dugie8]

Re: Cessna 421 ambulance and charter

Oh, and by the way, every POI I've ever run into is constantly "interpreting" the regs to determine what's legal. Interpret the regs in relation to the company they're assigned to (in order to insure compliance) is essentially all a POI does. What one POI says is Kosher is completely different from what another POI says. Its all interpretation.

Every POI you have run into is wrong then. There is a very strict set rules and such that POIs follow, they don't get to interp the regs at all, that is purely the Chief Counsel's job, ask JetBlue how that worked out for them. Kosher is written in the regs and applicable interps BY the Chief Counsel. That is the way it is designed to work, how it works in the real world is a completely different story however.

If you have a chance you can access and read all the manuals and such that a POI is to use for granting and approving OPSPECS, GOMs, etc. It is all pretty straight forward with little room for interp or "outside the box" thinking. Yes there is a wide range of approvals for OPSPECS thus leading to a very diverse collection of operations under 125/121/91k etc but that diversity isn't up to the interps of POIs.

 

[Douglas]

Re: Cessna 421 ambulance and charter

*You'll know tomorrow if today was your day off.*
Pretty standard for the small 135 world.

Like ppragman said, voicemail/unable/drunk were all a-okay excuses when I was in the always-on-call, small, 135 pax world.

 

[Maurus]

Re: Cessna 421 ambulance and charter

Any chance one of these 24/7 operators have an exception or deviation in their ops specs?