135 SIC Time

dkozak

New Member
Hello alll,

Just wanted to ask someone who may know, how does it look for someone wanting ride ride right seat on short cargo hops? Do companies actually look for folks to fly right seat on aero-commanders, caravans, ect. I have seen the programs where you can buy right seat time. Has anyone ever done this? Is it worth it? Any ideas at just getting your foot in the door? Thanks

-Dan
 
Dan,
Look around the forum. Paying for flight training, or even talking about doing so is a great way to blackball yourself on this website. I will say that it is a bad idea... you shouldn't have to PAY to do a job you should be getting paid for. I fly dead legs in Piper Cheyenne II's, and Navajos to build time. You might want to find an operation that is single pilot and just ask if you can fly dead legs. In any event, do not pay for flight time unless it is requried for a rating!
 
dead leg = part 91
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it would only be under part 135 if there are passengers in it...thus you would be able to log it. (I think thats how it goes at least! )
 
Yeah, I have about 320 hours total time, and about 25 multi.... The company I fly for has a fleet of Cheyennes and Navajos, they operate on a 135 certificate. I go along, and once we drop off our people, or our cargo, I fly the next leg. For instance, my last trip we flew from Ohio to Memphis, TN to drop off a heart, once we dropped it off, I flew from Memphis to Ohio. Most excellent for the logbook
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Once we dropped our heart, the aircraft operated under part 91.
 
At Airnet, as far as my understanding goes with our ops specs is this.....If the Chief Pilot's office assigns an SIC to the flight, whether Part 135 or not, the SIC can log the time as total flight time for the entire flight and as PIC time for which he is manipulating the controls. This even applies to aircraft that require only one pilot.
 
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At Airnet, as far as my understanding goes with our ops specs is this.....If the Chief Pilot's office assigns an SIC to the flight, whether Part 135 or not, the SIC can log the time as total flight time for the entire flight and as PIC time for which he is manipulating the controls. This even applies to aircraft that require only one pilot.

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In my opinion, Airnet stretches the interpetation of the reg to a degree. Their stance, as I understand it, is even though the aircraft doesn't require a SIC their ops specs requires it does, which means you can log the time as PNF as SIC. Regarding logging PF time as PIC on a Part 135 flight, my opinion is that if you don't meet the requirements for PIC on Part 135 than how can you log it as such?
 
[/ QUOTE ]In my opinion, Airnet stretches the interpetation of the reg to a degree. Their stance, as I understand it, is even though the aircraft doesn't require a SIC their ops specs requires it does, which means you can log the time as PNF as SIC. Regarding logging PF time as PIC on a Part 135 flight, my opinion is that if you don't meet the requirements for PIC on Part 135 than how can you log it as such?

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At my gig.... we fly Cheyennes and Navajo's. When we are empty, the aircraft is operating under part 91. I believe Airnet occassionally has empty legs as well (I may very well be wrong) which their "SIC" pilots log as PIC. Who knows though, for those of us who catch a good gig, or get a break with Airnet or a similar operation... thats awesome. I certainly wouldn't worry about Airnet "stretching the regs" in my opinion they are doing their best to help out low-time pilots. I think its great, and I appreciate the operation that gives me the chance to log some turbine multi on their dead legs!
 
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I certainly wouldn't worry about Airnet "stretching the regs" in my opinion they are doing their best to help out low-time pilots

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Until some guy asks you how you got the time in an interview. Then "stretching the regs" becomes an issue. If you can figure out a way that it can legally be logged, then I'm all for it. Flying under Part 91 and logging PIC as sole manipulator seems legal enough to me. Flying under Part 135 seems a little fishy loggin SIC in a plane that probably doesn't require a two pilot op. Look at Ameriflight's program. If you can be bumped for cargo, you probably shouldn't be logging the time.
 
I agree with you 100%. When I first started up with the gig that I have now... I called the FSDO, looked in the regs, and made darn sure everything I was doing was legit. The only thing the FSDO wanted to make sure was that I got a high altitude sign off (because the a/c has a service ceiling higher than 25,000 and/or is pressurized).

That was the only stipulation that they could find. I looked at it as... "okay I will look in the regs, call the FSDO, check with the owner (who is a examiner), etc. and as long as those three parties were all in check with each other I'd log it." As far as what Airnet does, I don't know because I don't work there. But, if you can find a legit 135 operator with a decent amount of "empty" legs it is worth your while to try and get on with them!
 
I too had the question as to how to log the PIC/SIC in a single pilot airplane. There are some companies that won't accept the PIC (Southwest) but for the most Airnet is doing a service for low-timers. I found the following interview in my research of the company when I was lining up my ducks to head that way:

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Time Building with AirNet
AirNet offers a paid time-building option to pilots who do not yet qualify to fly as pilot in command in Part 135 operations. Under this arrangement, time-builders go through the same initial training program, but fly in the right seat with a captain-qualified pilot on one of AirNet’s piston twin routes until they build enough total and PIC time to take over the left seat responsibilities. Washka says pilots applying to the second-in-command program need about 900 total hours to be competitive for hiring.

“That would be excellent, because then it would take about three months to build enough time to become an AirNet captain and we think that’s optimal,” he says.

Inevitably, when AirNet’s SIC program is discussed, some pilots become confused about how to log the time. Washka recognizes the issue and says AirNet received so many questions on the logging of flight time “that we actually went back and sat down with the FAA in Washington to get interpretations and make sure we’re doing everything right.

“In a nutshell, what they said was not only can pilots log time in the right seat of our aircraft, but they can log it as SIC time because we require an SIC to be there,” he explains. “It used to be that we had them logging only their PIC time and the other time was just added to total time. Well, the FAA came back and said, ‘Look, even though the aircraft does not require a second crew member; because of the rules you operate under and your operations specs, you can assign a pilot to a plane and they can log their time as SIC time.’

“When a time builder is on board, as long as he’s trained and checked in the plane, he can log the time he’s actually flying the plane as PIC. If he’s not flying the plane, but acting as a crew member, he can log it as SIC time,” Washka states. “It’s totally legal and it’s important to understand. There’s no gray area in the logging of flight time as far as AirNet and the FAA are concerned.”

Washka also emphasizes that when AirNet hires a low-time pilot, he or she is immediately added to the company’s full-time pilot seniority list upon successfully completing initial training.

“It used to be they had to build up enough time to become a captain before they moved up to the full-time seniority list, so this change is a great perq for a pilot,” he says. “Their seniority is only determined by the day they pass their initial checkride, so if they hustle and do a good job, it can really pay off later when they’re higher on the list.”

— Ian Tocher

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From here

Airnet is using the part 61 definition of PIC - sole manipulator. The pilot is SIC certified, required to be there (per ops specs) and as such can log SIC, and PIC when they're flying. Apparently, the FAA doesn't have a problem with it - other airlines might however.

~wheelsup
 
I've got over 100 hrs. of SIC time in a B100 (plus some "fo' real" PIC from 91 trips and dual received from training, but that doesn't matter right now). The SIC time is from 135 trips. The company Ops Specs give the option of using an SIC. The company policy is to always use an SIC. I went through training on the aircraft, and took an FAA checkride. I have an 8410 letter from the FAA, and that allows me to log SIC time in an aircraft that is certified single pilot. Personally, I only log SIC on any trip that's 135, whether I'm sole maniuplator or not. If it's a 91 trip, and it's my leg, I log PIC. If its not my leg, I don't log anything even though I'm doing the same thing I would be as PNF on a 135 trip. There is nothing shady about it, it's done often in the charter world. Of my whopping two regional interviews, neither have blinked an eye about that flight time. I just keep a copy of the 8410 in my logbook for them to see that I'm qualified, and be ready for systems questions on the airplane.



Oh, and by the way....Before someone asks, they pay me and they paid for my training.
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Let me repeat:

135 regs require two pilots per aircraft!

The exemption allows one pilot to fly with a working and approved autopilot. It doesn't say anywhere that you can't have an SIC and an autopilot at the same time.
 
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I have an 8410 letter from the FAA, and that allows me to log SIC time in an aircraft that is certified single pilot.

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Not familiar with an 8410. Could you explain what that is?
 
Its just a form that the FAA gives you when you pass a proficiency check under 121 or 135. Specific to the aircraft you take the checkride in.

There is an example if you scroll down towards the bottom of this. Click here.
 
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Quote:
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At Airnet, as far as my understanding goes with our ops specs is this.....If the Chief Pilot's office assigns an SIC to the flight, whether Part 135 or not, the SIC can log the time as total flight time for the entire flight and as PIC time for which he is manipulating the controls. This even applies to aircraft that require only one pilot.


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In my opinion, Airnet stretches the interpetation of the reg to a degree. Their stance, as I understand it, is even though the aircraft doesn't require a SIC their ops specs requires it does, which means you can log the time as PNF as SIC. Regarding logging PF time as PIC on a Part 135 flight, my opinion is that if you don't meet the requirements for PIC on Part 135 than how can you log it as such?

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according to Airnet's website their SIC program has been suspended since January 1,2003
 
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