SierraPilot123
Well-Known Member
seagull where did I indicate that our ops specs are for the Jet? I must be missing something or reading it incorrectly
121 Takeoff into IFR direct a VOR
- Thread starter SierraPilot123
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seagull
Well-Known Member
Didn't say you did, but since you referenced that your opspecs specifically did allow those operations, and since I had specifically stated that those operations are not approved for 121 jet operations, I wanted to ensure that nobody following this thread got confused.
SIUav8er
Narcosis
Thanks for the info on Diverse vector areas having to be in a radar environment... i seemed to have forgot that (i used to know! lol)
My next question is, have you ever actually received direct red bluff as your IFR departure here?
If this is outside radar contact (how do we know this?), I dont see how they could give any IFR aircraft that clearance.
My next question is, have you ever actually received direct red bluff as your IFR departure here?
If this is outside radar contact (how do we know this?), I dont see how they could give any IFR aircraft that clearance.
seagull
Well-Known Member
For a more general answer, if ATC gives you a clearance for "direct xyz" and the airport does not have radar and does have a published IDP, the expectation is that you fly the IDP, and THEN proceed to that point. You are not supposed to turn direct some point that might have a terrain issue. Of course, terrain separation is your responsibility, so part 91, if you believe you can clear the rocks, you could, certainly, just fly direct, legally. Whether it's safe is a different matter.
zmiller4
Well-Known Member
Seagull,
As I'm reading it, the opspecs section of our FOM (121 jet) specifically allow a "VMC takeoff and climb out to a specified point" (as long as terrain clearance and wx requirements are met)...but I can't find an FAR 121 reference for it.
Do you have a reference for an FAR that prohibits VMC climbs for 121 jet ops? This was an area that created issues at my airline years ago, but I thought we had it worked out...I'd hate to think that we weren't authorized for it.
seagull
Well-Known Member
As I said before, some carriers have gotten an exemption, but, more often, someone missed the language in the FAA source document that talks about the limitations of it, and I have seen more than one case where the carrier and the POI have approved it without realizing that it really wasn't something that they were supposed to approve.
frascaflyer
Well-Known Member
ExpressJet OpSpec C077 paragraph e:
e. Terminal departures IFR. The flightcrew must comply with the departure procedures established for a particular airport by the FAA if ATC does not specify any particular departure procedure in the takeoff clearance given for that airport. The flightcrew may accept an IFR clearance containing a clearance for a VMC takeoff and climb out to a specified point in the clearance, if the limitations and provisions of subparagraph f. of this operations specification are met.
C077 paragraph f:
f. Special Limitations and Provisions for Visual Flight Rules. All VFR operations authorized by this operations specification shall be conducted in accordance with the following limitations and provisions.
(1) The certificate holder must identify obstacles and use airport obstacle data which ensures that the performance requirements of Subpart I of Part 121 are met.
(2) The weather conditions must allow the flightcrew sufficient seeing conditions to identify and avoid obstacles and safely maneuver using external visual references and to maintain minimum altitudes.
(3) N/A (Alaskan ops)
Most operators probably have C077 in their opspecs.
e. Terminal departures IFR. The flightcrew must comply with the departure procedures established for a particular airport by the FAA if ATC does not specify any particular departure procedure in the takeoff clearance given for that airport. The flightcrew may accept an IFR clearance containing a clearance for a VMC takeoff and climb out to a specified point in the clearance, if the limitations and provisions of subparagraph f. of this operations specification are met.
C077 paragraph f:
f. Special Limitations and Provisions for Visual Flight Rules. All VFR operations authorized by this operations specification shall be conducted in accordance with the following limitations and provisions.
(1) The certificate holder must identify obstacles and use airport obstacle data which ensures that the performance requirements of Subpart I of Part 121 are met.
(2) The weather conditions must allow the flightcrew sufficient seeing conditions to identify and avoid obstacles and safely maneuver using external visual references and to maintain minimum altitudes.
(3) N/A (Alaskan ops)
Most operators probably have C077 in their opspecs.
seagull
Well-Known Member
C077, yes, authorization for paragraph f, no.
frascaflyer
Well-Known Member
Gotcha. ExpressJet does. Don't know about any others.
zmiller4
Well-Known Member
C077 is what I was referring to as well (we have both paragraphs E and F)...sounds like that's the authorization you were referring to? The way I've had it explained to me from instructors here is that we're required specifically to get a clearance to climb VMC to some altitude and fix on our flight plan.
Interestingly enough, I got into a little disagreement with a captain (checkairman actually) about this: The ODP required a "climb direct to the [on-field] VOR, cross the VOR at XXXX". It was my leg and VFR below 10000' or something, and I briefed that we would comply with the ODP (even though we would have probably gotten above center's MVA prior to reaching the clouds and terrain wasn't a problem) because I hadn't specifically asked for a VMC climb. The CA asked me why not just turn on course, and I said I was pretty sure we had to receive a clearance for the VMC climb. He told me I was wrong but to do whatever I wanted...which was pretty much the ODP.
I wanted to discuss it later but for some reason we never did.