121 Deicing during light snowfall

If something is sticking to the aircraft I deice. (Even if it the contamination is what I consider very minor. Clean aircraft concept right?) Yeah I see what you are getting at: if you have a super light dusting/wisp of dry snow on the wings it will probably blow off and odds are you'll fly just fine. However are you willing to bet your certificate, potential fines and livelihood on that?

I'd be willing to bet that the bulk of your FAA inspectors will draw the line on the VERY conservative side and would like us to deice in all such situations.
 
zmiller4 said:
Sure about that? We increase V1 and Vr to compensate for reduced performance with anti-ice (wings and cowls) on, but we sure don't correct for anything if we just got de-frosted with type I.



Gotcha. I'm uber-paraniod about deicing too. I had rampers in TUS yell at me for asking for a defrosting with "only a film" on the wings.
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I'm developing pet peeves as I age and that is one of them. I hate when rampers/agents roll their eyes or get huffy if I tell them we need to de-ice and in their perception the frost is only minor. Well in my perception it might only be minor too, but I'm still deicing. I truly realize it is a hassle for them, but it is not their butt and certificate on the line.

To be fair that reation from rampers is pretty rare, but I have seen it too.
 
Lee D said:
If something is sticking to the aircraft I deice. (Even if it the contamination is what I consider very minor. Clean aircraft concept right?) Yeah, if you have a super light dusting/wisp of dry snow on the wings it will probably blow off and odds are you'll fly just fine. However are you willing to bet your certificate, potential fines and livelihood on that?
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+1
 
Lee D said:
I'm developing pet peeves as I age and that is one of them. I hate when rampers/agents roll their eyes or get huffy if I tell them we need to de-ice and in their perception the frost is only minor. Well in my perception it might only be minor too, but I'm still deicing. I truly realize it is a hassle for them, but it is not their butt and certificate on the line.

To be fair that reation from rampers is pretty rare, but I have seen it too.
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I agree with this peeve. Just this week I had a ramper tell me "I don't see the ice" as there were still chunks of ice probably 4-5" long, 2" wide still stuck on the boots from the arrival.

I've never been so pizzed off in my life. He was almost refusing to deice. :mad: One of "our" guys too, not even an FBO somewhere strange. Shocked and pizzed to say the least.

-mini
 
On the Saab at XJ, we apply fluids corrections to V1, Vr, and V2 if taking off with type IV, or type I below -25 C.

Yes, I know its supposed to shear off on the takeoff roll (though I flew on a 73 once from MHT to ORD, and there was type I on certain areas of the wing the entire flight).

I'm looking at the performance section of my POM, and that's what it says to do.
 
I'm with B767driver on this one.

I've had very cold/dry nights where it's very light SN and it doesn't adhere, it's just to dry and cold. If I think it'll be a short taxi and stay like that I won't deice.

At XJT on the ERJ there's no change in performance numbers for deice/anti-ice.

We also had a pre-takeoff contamination check where one went to the window and looked out and checked for "fluid failure" to extend the holdover time. This procedure was thrown out in last year's winter ops and frankly I was happy to see it go. Sorry, but you're not going to convince me that most guys are competent or able to make that call on a dark snowy night by looking out the window with a flashlight. No joke I've seen plenty of guys unable to detect frost on a walk around (they claim they're not familiar with winter ops), let alone fluid failure. Fortunately as an FO I was never called on to make the walk back to check for fluid failure, and had I had any doubt would have asked the CA to check.

Now basically one we hit out holdover time, it can only be extended by someone outside physically checking the wing, adding +5min or doing the process over. A much more conservative approach IMO.
 
I'm a firm believer in the conservative approach here. If there is ANY question....then there is no question for me, we're getting deiced! I am not willing to bet my certificates on this. Why risk it or add the potential scrutiny from the FAA when you have the ability to take 10 minutes, get sprayed, and be safely on your way.

No brainer IMO!
 
Cruise said:
I'm a firm believer in the conservative approach here. If there is ANY question....then there is no question for me, we're getting deiced! I am not willing to bet my certificates on this. Why risk it or add the potential scrutiny from the FAA when you have the ability to take 10 minutes, get sprayed, and be safely on your way.

No brainer IMO!
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I'm with Cruise. The only arguments I have heard people make against not getting deiced/anti-iced are the added time required and the cost to the company...neither is a concern of mine during winter ops.

I turned around the other day in EWR when I was #2 for departure during light flurries. I didn't give it a second thought, a holdover time is a holdover time.

The conservative route will help you sleep better at night...because you're NEVER wrong!
 
Plus, it's hard to play CYA with 20 iPhone pictures of snow on the wing as you taxi into position and the snowflakes haven't blown off yet. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the hardest part of flying is covering your ass.
 
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